Hillary_Clinton_Forum_75

         (New York, April 7, 1999) Human Rights Watch today contended that U.S.
government plans to place Kosovo Albanians at Guantanamo Bay will not
      adequately protect their rights as refugees.  "We appreciate the
      humanitarian response of the United States to the refugees, but it is
      no favor to keep them indefinitely confined at an offshore military
      base" said Holly Cartner, executive director of the Europe and Central
      Asia division of Human Rights Watch. "There is no doubt that these are
      refugees under international law, and the U.S. should fully recognize
      them as such rather than giving them a dubious secondary status."
  

      To date, the U.S. plan does not include giving the Kosovo Albanians
      legal status as refugees under U.S. law.  By keeping the Albanians
      offshore, the U.S. government will deprive them of their right to
      apply for political asylum, to challenge any decision to deport them,
      or to challenge the conditions of their confinement at Guantanamo.
      "These rights are essential," said Cartner, "because  it is unclear
      when -- if ever -- Kosovo will be safe for ethnic Albanians to return
      to their homes." Guantanamo, as a military base, has historically
      presented obstacles to the humane treatment of refugees and asylum
      seekers, including difficult access for lawyers, restricted movement
      for those interned, poor medical facilities, and minimal social
      services.   

      Human Rights Watch called on the government to immediately extend
      refugee status to all Kosovo Albanians being airlifted by the U.S. and
      to respect fully their rights under the 1951 Refugee Convention and
      its 1967 Protocol. The organization welcomed the government's
      announced decision to halt deportations of Kosovo Albanians who are
      already in the country, and urged that they too be granted full
      refugee status under U.S. law.
  

      *** This human rights flash is an occasional information bulletin from
      Human Rights Watch.  It will include human rights updates on the
      situation in Yugoslavia generally and in Kosovo specifically.  For
      further information see the Human Rights Watch website
www.hrw.org )or contact Fred Abrahams at (212) 216-1270
or  abraha-@hrw.org  ***   

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Message: HILLARY CLINTON - WHERE ARE YOU? WHY AREN'T YOU HELPING IN THIS HUMAN CATASTROPHE?

Name: lorelei kraft

email: loreleikraft@hotmail.com

Message: News reports state that the U.S. will accept 20,000 Kosovo refugees. I don't know what the plans are for housing them, but I am willing to take one or two refugee families. Please let me know if I can be of service. I also feel we must stay in Kosovo till the massacres stop.

Name: HRC

email: I've been busy.

Message: Well, I've been busy Camel shopping, if my "husband" can put a jogging track into the White House, I should at least have my own Camel. I enjoy test riding these Camels and have to find the right one. Why all the fuss over that part of the village we have been disciplining? Calm down villagers, Bill and I have everything under control, just go back to work and be thankful you have us as your leaders. Ta ta

Name: Message to Hillary

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Message: Get off those camels. It takes a Global Village to save the Albanians. We expect you to head the USA Relief Campaign. If you don't hurry we will ask Libby Dole to do it.

Name: Clinton's War

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Message: So, LVD, if the Germans said "this is Hitler's war" and turned their backs on the atrocities in the death camps, you would not have had a problem with that?

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Message: BELGRADE, April 8 — Cypriot envoy Spyros Kyprianou arrived in Belgrade Thursday to try to secure the release of three captured U.S. soldiers, but a source close to Yugoslav President Slobodan Milosevic said the three would not be released. Kyprianou said that NATO's airstrikes overnight had complicated matters.

Name: Last Visible Dog

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So, LVD, if the Germans said "this is Hitler's war" and turned their backs on the atrocities in the death camps, you would not have had a problem with that?

Wow, how historically incorrect and politically naďve can you get? (I can see why whoever wrote do not sign it) First, do you blame all German's for the actions of Hitler and the SS? If so, you are not a student of history. Most Germans has no idea the death camps existed. Second, Hitler was a totalitarian dictator - are you saying that Clinton is a dictator? Third, are you claiming that the sins of the President must be carried by all the citizens - so since Clinton is a liar and has commented adultery therefore I have committed adultery and lied (that is a pretty weird concept). Forth, I would have problems with Clinton death camps and I NOW have problems with Clinton's dirty little war. I have spoken out against it many times so I have no idea what the "you would not have had a problem with" is supposed to mean. My point is clear and simple - this is not an American war because Congress did not declare war or even authorize the use of the military (unlike the Gulf War) and Congress is the representative of the people - this is Clinton's personal war and he gets all the blame (of course he is currently sniffing out a scapegoat).

-LVD

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email: More news from the so-called NATO victory

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Thursday April 8, 2:43 PM (EST)

Russia will supply arms to Belgrade if war goes on - Duma.


MOSCOW, April 8 (Itar-Tass) - State Duma speaker Gennady Seleznyov said on Thursday Moscow will have to provide military assistance and support to Yugoslavia if peace initiatives by Moscow and Belgrade are not listened to.

Seleznyov was speaking at a briefing after his visit to Belgrade where he had held talks with Yugoslav leaders.

"The Yugoslav army is equipped with Soviet and Russian weaponry, and, since we supply it, we must continue to keep it in normal combat shape," he said.

In his view, if Yugoslavia had modern air defense system, "NATO would never have poked its nose there."

However, he added that military supplies to Yugoslavia require careful consideration. "I would very much like us to be able to spell out to NATO: do not push us into providing military help to Yugoslavia," he stated.

Russia will seek peaceful negotiations between the parties, it does not want to be drawn into the war, but if escalation continues, it will have to do it, according to the speaker.

He also stated that Russia will never let Yugoslavia be conquered. Americans should know that "Serbs will fight to the last man which we saw ourselves." "No military blackmail will break them, on the contrary, it will evoke more anger and a desire for revenge, Seleznyov said, noting that if NATO begins land operations, "a sea of blood will be shed."

Commenting on the draft resolutions over the situation in Yugoslavia, which the Duma intends to consider on Friday, Seleznyov said he would call upon lawmakers "not to hurry with these resolutions, because resolutions do not tend to improve the situation.

It is his opinion that the Federal Assembly is doing important political work in settling the Yugoslav conflict.

Name: Susan

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You can compare the prosecutor Ken Starr's tactics to those of a totalitarian regime, a banana republic and the Third Reich. Yes, independent counsel Kenneth Starr's methods are similar to those of Hitler's Third Reich. This is something you expect to find in the Third Reich.

They've terrorized me. I know it's not great form to get that personal, but I have been through something very traumatic.

I have been through Starr's out of control prosecutors tactics of harassment. This jury is the last check on government tyranny.

The jury has to do what is morally right. There comes a certain point where things have gone awry when people just have to stand up and say, Enough is enough.

It's so offensive for Ken Starr and his thugs to say with a straight face they wanted to look to see if they could clear the president. How dumb do they think I am ? The prosecutors' goal is to crush everything between them and the President and Mrs. Clinton.

I have the courage, the guts, the innocent reason to say, I am not going to be used like that. I will not be manipulated by Ken Starr !

Name: Last Visible Dog to "Susan"

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Starr's methods are similar to those of Hitler's Third Reich. This is something you expect to find in the Third Reich.

This is an absurd statement and I take great offense. An officer of the our court system applying the rule of law has no relationship to the Third Reich - you fool. Ken Starr has never been charged with violating any laws but Susan has been convicted of multiple felonies and is about to be convicted of Criminal Contempt. Most criminals try to attack their accuser to divert attention for their own crimes - this is nothing new.

The offensive aspect of this statement is what really bothers me. The Third Reich and Hitler were real - they are not just PR tools or props to be used by shameless liberals. Hitler perpetrated horrendous crimes including genocide - the systematic killing of Jews, gypsies, and other races and creeds Hitler did not like. Hitler created a machine for the systematic killing of hundreds of people a day and ultimately killed millions of people (noncombatants). Susan, your pathetic attempt to use Hitler as a prop makes me want to wolf my cookies and I think the Editor of this forum should demand that you apologize. Ken Starr has never even been charged with a single crime (not even j walking) yet you want to compare him to the man that masterminded genocide in the killing of millions of people (not to mention Hitler tried to take over every country in Europe). This time Susan you have gone to far. Thousands of Americans fought and died to defeat Hitler and YOU claim Ken Starr is similar - YOU FOOL! When you watch "Saving Private Ryan", especially the beach scenes, do you think to yourself "yeah, this is a lot like Ken Starr's tactics" - of cause you do NOT! You are a pathetic proven lair and a convicted felon willing to do or say anything to cover up your crimes including desecrating the memory of the thousands that fought and dead to defeat Hitler (including some of my family members). Luckily none of my family were killed in WWII but they are now dead - so I will speak for them now by showing by disdain for you Susan: (I spit at you to show my disdain for you). Got crawl back into the dark slimy hole you came from. Enjoy prison life - nobody deserves it more than you.

Name: HRC

email: I've been busy.

Message: Well, I've been busy Camel shopping, if my "husband" can put a jogging track into the White House, I should at least have my own Camel. I enjoy test riding these Camels and have to find the right one. Why all the fuss over that part of the village we have been disciplining? Calm down villagers, Bill and I have everything under control, just go back to work and be thankful you have us as your leaders. Ta ta

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Message: Away from public eye, Bill Clinton is a violent, profane man who wants to 'kill' his enemies

CAPITAL HILL BLUE
4/8/99 DOUG THOMPSON

Away from the public eye and the vaunted White House spin machine, President Bill Clinton is a vulgar, vengeful man who believes in "killing" people try to hurt him, those who know Clinton best say.

White House staffers, Clinton confidants and others describe Clinton as "incredibly profane" and "an angry man who wants to inflict as much pain as possible on his enemies."

Former White House senior staff member George Stephanopoulos in his book, All Too Human, writes about Clinton's mishandling of the Somalia crisis and shows the depth of the President's violent emotions:

"'We're not inflicting pain on these fuckers,' Clinton said, softly at first. 'When people kill us, they should be killed in greater numbers.' Then, with his face reddening, his voice rising, and his fist pounding his thigh, he leaned into Tony [Lake], as if it was his fault. 'I believe in killing people who try to hurt you. And I can't believe we're being pushed around by these two-bit pricks.'"

Those who have known Clinton since his days in Arkansas say the quote is "vintage Bill."

"Only an idiot would buy the public persona of Bill Clinton," says Walter Erricson, a retired reporter who covered Clinton in his early political days in Arkansas. "He is an incredibly profane individual. He is now and always has been an angry man who wants to inflict as much pain as possible on his enemies."

White House staff members say Clinton curses like a sailor, has temper tantrums that cause people to back away from him and uses the word "kill" often to describe what he wants to do with his enemies.

"Once, when the House was finishing up its impeachment investigation, the President slammed his fist down on the table and said 'I'd like to kill all of these sons of bitches and just be done with it!' There was a long, painful period of silence until he regained his composure. Then everybody went on like it was never said," says one former White House staffer.

Samuel Wilson, a former political worker in Clinton's second campaign for governor, remembers the candidate encountering a critic at a campaign appearance in a small town. After the critic told Clinton he was nothing but a "two-bit politician" and then walked away, Clinton turned to a campaign aide and said "write down the name of that motherfucker. When I'm back in office, he's a dead man."

"I remember his look. It was cold," Wilson said. "I don't want to think he wanted to kill him literally, but I'm sure some sort of revenge was inflicted later on."

In fact, it was fear of what Attorney General Bill Clinton could do to her business that kept nursing home operator Juanita Broaddrick from reporting Clinton's rape of her 21 years ago in a Little Rock hotel room.

"Her fears were justified," says retired reporter Erricson. "Everybody knew Bill Clinton was a man who got even, any way he could."

Helen Shannon, who worked in the Arkansas Statehouse during Clinton's second term as governor, said the governor would personally order state contracts canceled when he got angry with people.

"The word would come down from the governor's office that somebody was off limits and we would cancel their contracts and put them on a 'don't use' list. It happened a lot," she says.

Shannon, who was dating a member of Clinton's staff, says Clinton would order audits of contracts and tell the the Arkansas State Police to "turn up the heat" on somebody he didn't like.

"When Bill Clinton ran Arkansas, it was a police state," she says.

White House staff members tell similar stories. At one meeting, Clinton told staff members he wanted everyone in the Independent Counsel Kenneth Starr's office audited by the IRS.

"Several people in the meeting told the President he shouldn't do that," the staff member remember. "He slammed his fist down on the table and said: 'I can do any Goddamned thing I want. I'm President of the United States. I take care of my friends and I fuck with my enemies. That's the way it is. Anybody who doesn't like it can take a hike."

The White House did not return calls for comment.

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Message: "I can do any Goddamned thing I want. I'm President of the United States. I take care of my friends and I fuck with my enemies. That's the way it is. Anybody who doesn't like it can take a hike."

Name: John Q. Public

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Boy, am I glad he survived the impeachment process.

Those Senators that voted not guilty should be very proud.

Me and the rest of the 67% still approve of this man.

We are……………. John Q. Public.

Name: PAUL FAZIO

email: PWITZ>AOL.COM

Message: WOW,Hillary what do you have against, New York? It's bad enough what you tried to do to America. (and thankfully failed). Why don't you go to cuba take bill I feel your pain(BILL) with you and leave us americans alone? I am a Vietnam vetran(somrthing you and bill are not) I know you and bill were to busy during that time to feel our pain, but you had better things to coverup i mean think about. your peasant. Paul ps were is RON,GEORGE when we need them

Name: For the Clinton haters

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Message: Maybe you guys are too young to remember the Nixon tapes and how vulgar and threatening Nixon's vocabulary was. Worse than Bill. We live in the information age where it's easy to expose this stuff -- Nixon was a lot worse.

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Message: The Washington Post Editorials
Russia's Role By Celeste A. Wallander
Thursday, April 8, 1999; Page A31

Increasingly, discussion of options to salvage the disastrous policy on Kosovo has turned to a ground force intervention. Should the United States decide it must stop the humanitarian crisis it has helped to create, it will face a major obstacle to such a mission. Intervention without Russian participation will lack legitimacy and is likely to be the final blow against meaningful Russian security cooperation with the West for a long time. Somehow, a way must be found to end this crisis through cooperation with Russia.

Circumvention of the U.N. Security Council in order to launch airstrikes against Yugoslavia unilaterally and solely on NATO's terms was a mistake. Even for Russia's liberal and moderate elites who do not buy sinister interpretations of NATO's continued existence after the Cold War, an alliance that excludes Russia has a negative image as a council of great powers. Many Russians have warned that NATO expands its military capabilities to be able to dictate political terms on weaker states, including Russia.

But by excluding Russia from the single most important decision about European security that has been made since the end of the Cold War, NATO and the West have severely undermined support in Russia for security cooperation. MORE....

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email: WASHINGTON POST

Message: The failure of the initial objectives leaves NATO and the United States with new options, which are not being openly stated. The first is to lose. Milosevic speedily mops up what's left of Kosovo and entreats for peace -- with Kosovo's borders guarded against the return of the expelled ethnic Albanians.

Clinton seemed to rule out this disastrous option on Monday. "A commitment to cease killing and a Kosovo denied its freedom and devoid of its people is not acceptable," he said. "The ethnic cleansing of Kosovo cannot stand as a permanent event."

That leaves two other possibilities. The first is that Milosevic will indeed succeed in cleansing Kosovo before NATO can hurt him enough to stop him. But a campaign of punishment from the air will also succeed, over time (a month or more is contemplated), in decimating and then routing the Serb forces in Kosovo. In the most optimistic scenario, this defeat will force Milosevic from power.

The third possibility is that the air assault alone will not drive the Serbs from Kosovo, but that the continued suffering of the Kosovar Albanians will so change the climate of opinion as to make it possible for the United States to lead a NATO ground war against Serbia. MORE...

Name: Editor

email: Let the Albanian Refugees In

Message: What a mess we are in.... I take my anger out on Clinton, not for his failed policy in Kosovo, even though I opposed the war, but for wanting to send 20,000 refugees to Guantanamo Bay when right here on this board we have a wonderful person by the name of Loreli Kraft who has offered to take some into her home. There are many generous people like Loreli in America why should we treat the refugees like prisoners when we can bring them into our hearts and into our homes?

Americans, by nature, are compassionate and would dearly love to make amends for the terrible suffering we have inadvertently inflicted on the Kosovar refugees. We want to take them into our homes and treat them as honored guests. Comfort them, heal them, clothe them, love them. It's the only way we can say we are sorry yet Clinton is denying us a privilege we are willing to pay for out of our own pockets. Why?

Name: Night-Editor

email: A little Pearl of Wisdom

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Name: Night-Editor

email: We Should be No.1 in Love as well as in War

Message: The governments of Europe may have mixed feelings about taking in Kosovo refugees, but their people are racing ahead of them.
The food drive in France has brought in 280,000 tons of donations, most of it in the last two days. In Kalmar, Sweden, people donated used computers to be sold at a fund-raiser. In Britain, more than $5 million was raised in less than 24 hours, with calls flooding 3,400 telephone lines.

Every day, two planeloads of food, tents and water purification equipment leave Cologne, Germany, for Albania and Macedonia, the two countries where most of the Kosovo refugees are gathered. The Spanish Red Cross has sent four trucks and a plane carrying food and medical supplies to Albania, enough to help an estimated 50,000 refugees. In Italy, so many donations have poured in that the Red Cross there has asked that contributions of food, clothing and bedding be suspended because there is no more room to store them. MORE...

Name: Editors

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Message: We said a little prayer for you Susan

Name: From "the Clinton haters"

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Message: Maybe you guys are too young to remember the Nixon tapes and how vulgar and threatening Nixon's vocabulary was. Worse than Bill. We live in the information age where it's easy to expose this stuff -- Nixon was a lot worse.

Let's see....you're asking whether we should choose between a man with vulgar language (although EVERY ex-staffer of Bill's says Nixon had nothing on him) and a man who resigned because he thought it best for the country or a man who is a confirmed felon, sexual predator, and most likely a rapist who uses mini-wars to boost his ratings.

Let's not forget while Nixon was accused of cheating on his taxes, he was exonerated, unlike Clinton. Nixon's foreign policy was considered excellent by populas and pundits alike (contrats to Bill's). Nixon loved and was true to his wife and family. Oh, yes, Nixon's little "SWAT team" was busy exposing a DNC run prostitution ring. Of course there are those who say prostitution is a victimless crime, but I disagree.

Oh,yes, Hillary and a DNC goon squad spent many years trying to dig up any dirt she could to impeach Nixon. Now she howls like the condemned soiuls of hell when someone does a small fraction back. If one applied the standard she advocated for Nixon's impeachment, well, we'd have lynched Bill.

Okay, so Nixon did deserve to go! No argument, however, Clinton's legacy may very well be that there were worse than Nixon by far.

Name: To Editor

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Message: In regards to your claim that the GOP has been silent about Kosovo, the reality is that the GOP does not get very good coverage from the liberal media. Here is some info posted at MSNBC today --- ANALYSIS By Tom Curry ------- THE FIRST REVEALING vote was on whether the House should authorize President Clinton to dispatch troops to Kosovo to enforce a peace accord between ethnic Albanians and Serbs. The House backed Clinton by a vote of 219-191. Republicans were more divided than Democrats, partly because the Democrats still feel a sense of party loyalty to Clinton. Only 18 Democrats voted against the authorization. Backing Clinton’s deployment were Democratic leader Dick Gephardt and whip David Bonior, both of whom voted against authorizing President Bush’s use of U.S. troops in the Persian Gulf War in 1991. One of every five House Republicans supported Clinton’s Kosovo policy. Among them was Rep. Henry Hyde, R-Ill., who said America had a “moral obligation” to “intercede when people are being wantonly, atrociously killed.” DANGER OF ENTANGLEMENT But most Republicans were passionate in citing the dangers of entanglement in a bitter ethnic war. The most eloquent Republicans were veterans such as Rep. Sam Johnson, R-Texas, an Air Force pilot who was shot down over Vietnam in 1966, held as prisoner for nearly seven years and beaten by his captors. Johnson warned that in Kosovo and Bosnia, “We appear to be aggressors. I really worry ... that we are going to lose an airplane or two. ... And if that guy [pilot] gets down in that area, those people are not going to be very nice to him. They do not like us over there.” Conservative Southern Democrats such Rep. Gene Taylor of Mississippi and Democrats on the left wing of their party such as Rep. Cynthia McKinney of Georgia joined ranks with Republican Johnson. “We are debating sending U.S. forces to keep a peace that does not exist, to carry out an agreement that has not been agreed to and to assist people on both sides who do not seem to want our help,” said McKinney. Thus she declared herself the heir to the 1970s George McGovern tradition of opposition to U.S. intervention in foreign conflicts. “Come home, America!” McGovern declared in his address to the 1972 Democratic convention as he accepted its nomination. It is McKinney and Johnson who echo McGovern’s call and Clinton — who was McGovern’s Texas field manager in 1972 campaign — who is the interventionist.

Name: From "the Clinton haters"

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"He [Bill Clinton] is now and always has been an angry man who wants to inflict as much pain as possible on his enemies."

Gee, I don't remember anyone saying this about Nixon.

Is George Stephonopolous officially considered a "Clinton Hater"

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In fact, it was fear of what Attorney General Bill Clinton could do to her business that kept nursing home operator Juanita Broaddrick from reporting Clinton's rape of her 21 years ago in a Little Rock hotel room.

This is the hero of the liberals?

Name: Zippy the Wonder Slug

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Is George Stephonopolous officially considered a "Clinton Hater"?

Well, those who know him best...

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Message: Have you forgotten Nixon's famous "Enemies List"? Have you forgotten the vast number of "expletive deleted's" on the transcripts of the tapes?

Name: Graduated High School

email: Hate-monger exposed.

Message: My my my. That Bill Clinton sure is a hate filled person. Isn't RAPE a "HATE" crime? Old Bill sure is INTOLERANT towards any oposition, wanting to KILL his opposition, that sure sounds INTOLERANT, EXTREMIST and HATE-MONGERING to me. All the Clinton defenders (HATE lovers) can try to do is say "well he isn't as BAD as" ... (fill in the blank). Amazing, people who worship intolerant, extremist hateful Clinton will do so in spite of objective reality. Oh, thats right, in the world of liberalism, there is no objective reality, even their "principles" are subjective and can change with the wind (as editor stated earlier). What will liberals do if Bill tells them to "drink the kool-aid?"

Name: Editor to Zippy

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Message: It will take a miracle for Clinton to recover from NATO's failed policy in Kosovo. I believe that Clinton and NATO really went into the war for humanitarian reasons but bungled it badly in so many different ways: by excluding Russia from the single most important decision about European security the West has severely undermined support in Russia for security cooperation. How stupid!

Circumvention of the U.N. Security Council was another huge mistake. Underestimating Milosevic resolve after all he has already done was beyond me. Not adequately preparing for the refugees is unforgivable. Personally I am extremely angry about the refugees because Milosevic said that was what he was going to do. How could NATO ignore this? Now that I have read a little history about the Balkans, expelling unwanted cultures from their countries has been the way of the Balkans for centuries. Why were they surprised when Milosivic did what he said he was going to do; what he has already done; and what that region of the world has been doing for centuries?

Now I am personally on the warpath if Clinton thinks he is going to shove 20,000 refugees in Guantanamo Bay like prisoners of war when we have families in the USA willing to take them in.

Mistake, after mistake, after mistake. VISION is what is sadly lacking in this war. I believed the Clintons had VISION, and they do, for domestic and economic matters, but VISION in war requires a different VISION, which they obviously do not have. This is very sad for all of us. Like it or not we are all in this together and we need to find a way out. I would suggest we start with something we CAN control: human rights for the refugees we helped to create.

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Name: Editor to Zippy

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Message: ... and I was not impressed with Clinton playing golf and Hillary on a camel on the first days of the war. "Well folks, I'm off to play golf today, happy genocide!"

Name: Last Visible Dog

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Maybe you guys are too young to remember the Nixon tapes and how vulgar and threatening Nixon's vocabulary was. Worse than Bill. We live in the information age where it's easy to expose this stuff -- Nixon was a lot worse.

Actually that is NOT TRUE (not even close). Nixon said "God Damn" and it freaked people out. Nixon said "Sh*t" and everybody was shocked. Nope, this record goes to Bill "weasel boy" Clinton - Nixon did not even come close to the vulgarity of Clinton.

Name: Last Visible Dog

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Condemn the Fault and not the Actor of it.

Let me get this straight, Night-Editor - we should condemn the actions of Charles Manson but Charlie should be set free? We should condemn serial murder but we should have let Ted Bundy got free? Do you actually think that is a "pearl of wisdom"?

Name: on behalf of the Night-Editor

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Message: LVD,you need to argue this point out with William Shakespeare.

Name: Editor

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Message: So now there is the rumor that Yeltzin is going to point his missiles at NATO countries. Oh, just what we needed ... a New Age Cold War! Didn't NATO think of this when they ignored Russia? Now Russia is saber-rattling with nuclear bombs? The Russians MUST be brought into this. We MUST NOT ISOLATE RUSSIA! Stupid! Stupid! Do we know where all the proliferated nuclear bombs are?

Name: Graduated High School

email: translating Night Editor's point

Message: What Night-Editor is trying to say: "Bill Clinton? - Look the other way, Now that Newt Gingrich, that intolerant, hate-mongering SOB Newt Gingrich - burn him at the stake." Night editor wants to stay on her knees and "service" (defend, apologize, look the other way for) Bill Clinton, despite the overwhelming evidence that he is not worthy of being President or being "serviced" (oh, that's right he has tried to rationalize partial birth abortion and on that alone, some will "service" him forever).

Name: Susan

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The only decision the jurors made yesterday was about lunch -- a split decision, half burgers and half deli sandwiches.

My brothers, supporters and lawyers wanted to eat at Doe's Eat Place, but the Starr thugs were there, so we had lunch at the Capital Hotel.

I will be honest, I am nervous, who wouldn't be.
But I know I will win and be happy !

While we were having lunch, the jury sent out some questions. They wanted to know the definition of innocent reason.
They are on the right track, because I am innocent !

My defense for refusing to answer questions when I went before a grand jury sitting in Little Rock in September 1996 and April 1998 is that I knew Starr was out to get the Clintons and would prosecute me for perjury unless I made up dirt about them.

Mark, my lawyer, told reporters he liked the questions from the jury, and he declared they made Starr's deputies look pretty glum.

Mark said it appears they're talking about his argument. He likes it any time jurors start talking about his client and the word innocent.

Name: William Shakespeare to Graduated

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Message: Graduated, please stay out of my works of art -- it's too much of a stretch for your brain.

Name: Graduated High School

email: Day Editor is cathching on

Message: Day editor, your seeing into the futility of Bubba's "me first" pragmatism. You sound frustrated with Bubba's bungling. There is hope for you, Bubba is bungling not only in his "private sexual life," but in the real world as well. There is a "principle" that if you can't manage the small things (little Willy) in life, you certainly can't manage the larger things (war, foreign policy) either.

Name: Graduated High School

email: to Shakespeare impersonator

Message: "Graduated, please stay out of my works of art -- it's too much of a stretch for your brain." ..... Nice try, Shakespeare wanna-be, but the attempt by night editor to continue to "service" her Bubba with the Shakespeare quote was transparent. Those who continue to "service" their Bubba are more pathetic than Monica Lewinsky, at least Monica seems to have figured Bubba out by now.

Name: to Editor

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Message: So now there is the rumor that Yeltzin is going to point his missiles at NATO countries. Oh, just what we needed ... a New Age Cold War! Didn't NATO think of this when they ignored Russia? Now Russia is saber-rattling with nuclear bombs? The Russians MUST be brought into this. We MUST NOT ISOLATE RUSSIA! Stupid! Stupid! Do we know where all the proliferated nuclear bombs are?

What seems to you and everyone else as obvious completely skipped the notice of Clinton.

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Have you forgotten Nixon's famous "Enemies List"? Have you forgotten the vast number of "expletive deleted's" on the transcripts of the tapes?

Enemies list or "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" take your pick. At least Nixon didn't pilfer over a thousand FBI files of his political enemies. Nixon didn't set up people like Buddy Dale (of the White House travel office) framing him to make way for his cronies. Nixon loved and honored his wife and family. Nixon was not a rapist or sexual predator. Nixon treated women with respect. Nixon resigned rather than risk tearing the country apart. As to Nixon's use of a few bad words or Clinton's oaths to kill plus the very same dirty words, I'll go with Nixon.

Let's review your defense of Clinton which is "Nixon was bad because he used alot of foul language" and you follow that with a conclusory statement that Nixon's language was worse. Are you sure? Every person who ever worked for Bill and resigned has told stories that Clinton's temper and foul mouth are legendary. Then consider that no one ever accused Nixon of wishing the deaths of his enemies or of using his political influence to cancel contracts to critics. Nixon was also not a rapist who kept his victims quiet through threats of financial ruin.

Really, was Nixon worse?

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Name: Last Visible Dog to Night-Editor

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LVD,you need to argue this point out with William Shakespeare.

Actually it was YOU, night-editor, that said it was a "pearl of wisdom" and NOT Shakespeare. Therefore it is in your court.

Name: Last Visible Dog to Editor

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I believe that Clinton and NATO really went into the war for humanitarian reasons

I am not a mind reader so I can't really disagree (but I can doubt). I have one word to say as a retort: Rwanda. The magnitude of the atrocities was tens of times worse - yet Clinton and NATO did nothing. I may have been somewhat overly dramatic in my representation of the motives of Clinton and NATO but I truly believe NATO did it to try and justify its existence and Clinton did it for his legacy (not to say it did not have humanitarian overtones). If Clinton was a humanitarian he would have done something about Rwanda - I truly believe Clinton is an opportunist first and foremost.

I believed the Clintons had VISION

(this is not a loaded question - I honestly want to know) What did Clinton actually do (not just talk about) that makes you believe he has vision?

-LVD

Name: Last Visible Dog to Graduated

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There is a "principle" that if you can't manage the small things (little Willy) in life, you certainly can't manage the larger things (war, foreign policy) either.

Now THAT is a Pearl of Wisdom - that should be carved in stone. GREAT JOB Graduated!

BTW - that is what conservatives have been trying to say all along - nice to see the Editor is awakening for their slumber.

-LVD -LVD

Name: LVD

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Message: (Excuse my stutter - I am just excited to see the Editor respond to reason.)

:-)

Name: Wee-Willey-Jeff

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Message: I went to war for humanitarian reasons. I HAD to save both my legacy and my poll ratings.

....and I have plenty of vision....managed heath care....abortion on demand
....higher taxes and wealth redistribution.....did I say managed health care?

So my foreign policies on the whole have been abysmal failures...the important thing is that I cared. So I've treated my wife like a floor mat...the important thing is that I love her. So I took credit for the successful policies of the GOP...the important thing is I got the credit. So I took a few liberties with a few women and used my political influence to inject threats on pain of crossing my will....these women are trailer trash bimbos that EVERY LIBERAL ESTABLISHMENT, including NOW, thinks should shut up. They were stupid enough to be caught alone in a hotel room with me! Besides, all those allegations of corruption, felonies, and sexual impropriety are old and boring. America knew what I was and went into this with their eyes open.

Name: Wee-Willey-Jeff

email: to hate-mongering conservatives

Message: Certainly I've had a few minor failings, but who hasn't?

Anyway, I've never hurt anyone or if I did I made sure that they put ice on their lips to reduce the swelling. That is compassion

Name: Wee-Willey-Jeff

email: to vile, hatemongering conservatives

Message: Look, you guys are going to have to learn how to love and to forgive. Otherwise you will never get over your obsessive, hate mongering attitudes. Even in the worst light, my acts are truely old and boring and I'm still better than most! Besides, when you look at my little mistakes closely you'll see that anything I've done, I've done because I cared too much.

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Name: Editor to W-W-J

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Message: W-W-J, you are in v-e-r-y big trouble now. You never had the right, but now you have lost the anti-war left and a lot of the liberals around here. You have lost our confidence. NATO has lost its image. We have lost thousands of Albanian refugees who died a horrible death because of our "help" 20,000 Albanians are lost -- totally disappeared from the fields of Macedonia in the middle of the night! You have lost our $$$surplus$$$ ... and now Russia is talking about ICBM's pointed at us! You have lost world togetherness... it's fractured again ... that's bad news! What a mess! I hope you are praying for a miracle, because that's what you will need, for all our sakes.

Name: Spelling Nazi to W-W-J

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Message: Talking about losing W-W-J. You need to lose the "e" in truely -- It's "truly". I'm just nit-picking to make your life miserable because you deserve it for losing the war.

Name: Rep. Chris Cox (R-Calif).

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Message: "It's impossible at this juncture to do political injury to Bill Clinton without injuring the United States," Cox says. "If Clinton fails here, the United States fails here."

"Now that you see this refugee crisis, we really have to find a strategy to win in some way, whatever that means," says Camp, who adds mournfully: "We're all having trouble figuring out what a win is."

Name: Zippy the Wonder Slug

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Condemn the Fault and not the Actor of it.
    - William Shakespeare

This is just the Philosophy of the Christian Faith (and many others);
Hate the Sin but Love the Sinner, for we are all Sinners in the sight of God.

A prescription for healing, and, IMHO, a Pearl.

Name: R.B. BECKWORTH

email: Vail, Colorado

Message: Only to those for whom history is measured in days rather than in years and centuries is there reason to believe our intercession in Serbia will make any difference.

The passions fueling the civil war in Serbia have been fed by the similar cruelties inflicted on the Serbs in Croatia that were tacitly endorsed by U.S. foreign policy. Selective emotion and a perspective measured in nanoseconds will do nothing to change centuries of conflict.

What it will do is involve the United States in a devastating war that will slaughter American troops with no prospect of resolving anything.

What it will also do is risk a broad international destabilization as Russia becomes involved in Serbia's support and distances itself and its substantial stores of nuclear weapons from the West.

The resumption of overt global confrontation would serve no conceivable purpose. We have blundered tragically! Recognize the reality, and focus on helping the refugees.

Forget reshaping and policing the Balkans -- it cannot be done.

Name: Editor to Zippy

email: Shakespeare

Message: Thanks, Zippy - I honor your deeper understanding.

Name: Zippy the Wonder Slug

email: Y2K my ass! I'm more worried about WW3!

Message:

Russia "cannot allow" US to send troops into Yugoslavia

MOSCOW, April 9 (AFP) - President Boris Yeltsin warned Washington on Friday that Moscow "cannot allow" it to "seize" Yugoslavia by sending in ground forces, Interfax reported.

"They want to move on to ground actions, they just want to seize Yugoslavia and make it their protectorate," Yeltsin said. "We cannot allow this.

"Russia will not get involved in a military conflict in Yugoslavia unless we are pushed by the Americans," Yeltsin said.

"You must understand that Russia is nearby, we have access to the Mediterranean Sea and we cannot of course give up Yugoslavia," he said.

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Name: Editor to Zippy

email: You are right about WW3

Message: We ignored Russia in this war and now we are paying the price.
We have two options:
(1)Lose the war without without sending in ground troops, or...
(2)Lose the war and lose thousands of our ground troops, and tangle with the Russians and the possibility of a rogue nation zapping us with tactile nuclear weapons, or worse.

Those are our only two options as it see it. Either way we lose the war. Our best bet is to give up now, make some kind of a deal with Milosevic. Get our three soldier back, and make a heroic effort to restore a decent life for the refugees in the best possible way that we can.

It's no shame to lose this war. We can blame it all on Clinton. We had nothing to do with it. He didn't even consult us.

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Message: We are nervously waiting for the jury's decision and thinking how you must feel right now.

Name: Last Visible Dog to the Shakespeare butchers

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Condemn the Fault and not the Actor of it.
- William Shakespeare
This is just the Philosophy of the Christian Faith (and many others);
Hate the Sin but Love the Sinner, for we are all Sinners in the sight of God.
A prescription for healing, and, IMHO, a Pearl.

Sorry - I will have to call you on this one. The "Actor" getting away with the "fault" has NOTHING to do with Christianity! Hate the Sin but Love the Sinner has to do with who is the one that is doing the condemning. God makes it VERY clear that the "actor" may be condemned for the "fault" but God makes it clear that HE does the condemning and not us (thus the "love the sinner" thing). I think on further study you will find only one group that supports this modus operandi - the Hedonists.

Now to further burst your bubble Night-Editor and Zippy - Something VERY important was left out of the Shakespeare quote…the question mark! IT WAS A BLOODY QUESTION - not a statement. Sorry to ruin your "get out of responsibly free" quote - but you are simply taking Shakespeare completely out of context (and misrepresenting the Christian doctrine). It amazes me how much you have mangled and distorted the meaning of this quote - it was a question in a bit of dialog and NOT the foundation for a philosophy. (Zippy - say it ain't so!).

The quote is from "Measure for Measure" and was spoken by Angelo (the context was VERY different from this new meaning you are giving it). In "Measure for Measure" a Viennese duke (Vincentio) leaves control of his government to the deputy, Angelo. Angelo turns out to be a harsh disciplinarian and he condemns Claudio to death. Claudio's sister (Isabella) beseeches Angelo to pardon her brother. In their exchange in Act 2 Scene 2, Isabella says "I have a brother is condemn'd to die: I do beseech you, let it be his fault, And not my brother." - which means let if be the fault of the man and not my brother (which happen to be the same person - go figure). Angelo replies: "Condemn the fault and not the actor of it? Why, every fault's condemn'd ere it be done: Mine were the very cipher of a function, To fine the faults whose fine stands in record, And let go by the actor." - what Angelo means is basically "You got to be kidding - you want me to condemn the fault but not the actor" (in Ebonics it would be "The bitch be trippin'").

Jeepers guy - you weren't even close.

-LVD

Name: (part of) Measure For Measure. Act 2 Scene 2

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ISABELLA

There is a vice that most I do abhor,
And most desire should meet the blow of justice;
For which I would not plead, but that I must;
For which I must not plead, but that I am
At war 'twixt will and will not.

ANGELO

Well; the matter?

ISABELLA

I have a brother is condemn'd to die:
I do beseech you, let it be his fault,
And not my brother.

Provost

[Aside] Heaven give thee moving graces!

ANGELO

Condemn the fault and not the actor of it?
Why, every fault's condemn'd ere it be done:
Mine were the very cipher of a function,
To fine the faults whose fine stands in record,
And let go by the actor.

ISABELLA

O just but severe law!
I had a brother, then. Heaven keep your honour!

LUCIO

[Aside to ISABELLA] Give't not o'er so: to him
again, entreat him;
Kneel down before him, hang upon his gown:
You are too cold; if you should need a pin,
You could not with more tame a tongue desire it:
To him, I say!

ISABELLA

Must he needs die?

ANGELO

Maiden, no remedy.

ISABELLA

Yes; I do think that you might pardon him,
And neither heaven nor man grieve at the mercy.

ANGELO

I will not do't.

ISABELLA

But can you, if you would?

ANGELO

Look, what I will not, that I cannot do.

Name: LVD

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Thanks, Zippy - I honor your deeper understanding.

So much for deeper understanding - more like deeper doo doo. (sorry Zippy).

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Name: Free speech

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Message: Is this todays forum

Name: When can we take some refugees?

email: Other nations are better than us with helping the refugees?

Message: In Refugees, Many Israelis See Themselves
Thousands Donate Money and Goods, Citing Parallels to Treatment of Jews in WWII By Lee Hockstader
Washington Post Foreign Service
Friday, April 9, 1999; Page A30

JERUSALEM, April 8—When Moshe Peletz watches television these days, the footage of stunned, hollow-eyed refugees driven from Kosovo strikes a deep chord.

"I'm reminded of what I went through in World War II in Russia and Poland," said the 71-year-old Holocaust survivor, who immigrated to what would become Israel after the war. "After I watched this, I couldn't sleep at all. It was exactly the same thing."

Struck by the similarity of today's arresting images and those of mid-century European Jewry driven from their homes, thousands of Israelis are contributing to an extraordinary outpouring of financial, material and moral support for the ethnic Albanian refugees from Kosovo.

In the past week, more than 15,000 Israelis have contributed blankets, and nearly as many have made cash gifts averaging $40. About $500,000 has been raised from individuals -- a considerable sum for a country of 6 million people. A concert featuring 26 leading Israeli pop stars tonight raised an additional $500,000, and Israeli Army radio is running round-the-clock fund-raising telethons.

By early next week, the Jewish Agency, which usually concerns itself with helping Jewish immigrants settle in Israel, expects to have sent 100 tons of food, medicine, clothing and supplies on five airplanes to aid the refugees in Albania. And the Israeli army is running a 100-bed field hospital for refugees in Macedonia near the border with Kosovo -- the only such facility on the ground -- staffed with more than 70 Israeli doctors, nurses and specialists.

The charitable surge from the public is surprising in several ways, not least because the refugees are Muslims, and it stands in contrast to the government's balky response. It took several days for Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu to express explicit support for the NATO airstrikes against the Serb-led Yugoslav regime, and he initially said that Israel would send only a modest amount of food and material aid to the refugees.

Foreign Minister Ariel Sharon has refused to support the airstrikes at all, suggesting that a potential future alliance between Kosovo's ethnic Albanians and Islamic extremists could undermine the stability of the Balkans.

Apparently mindful of the growing public sympathy for the refugees, Netanyahu announced Wednesday that Israel would accept 100 refugees, and officials said more might be taken in later.

"These pictures of the trains [bearing refugees], they bring up images for everyone in the country . . . of the way Jews were shunted around Europe to concentration camps and gas chambers during the war," said Michael Jankelowitz, spokesman for the Jewish Agency.

"In the Holocaust, no one would take the Jewish people, and that's why 6 million people died."

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Name: Free Speech

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Message: The more things change the more things stay the same! Strange, TV shows us images of Refugees, yet in the 1940's no one in the USA or the US Government gave a damn and let 6 Million innocent victims die.

Name: Free Speech

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Message: Indfference to the suffering of others, sometimes leads to a Holocaust.

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Name: Free Speech

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Message: Now the USA is a place for refugees. Ask the Cubans!! God Bless America.

Name: Free Speech

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Message: AS for the war in Serbia there is no answer. War is Hell. But to turn our back on the butchering of innocent people and the crazy dictator. Well let the Germans lose some young men. Their grandparents hid in their houses and let the lunatics out in the 1920's and 1930's and we, the world paid for our indifference.

Name: LVD to Free Speech

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The more things change the more things stay the same! Strange, TV shows us images of Refugees, yet in the 1940's no one in the USA or the US Government gave a damn and let 6 Million innocent victims die.

This is historically incorrect. The US was not fully aware of the extent of the situation until long after the fall of the Third Reich. In the late 30's and early 40's communications were very different than today. Information of concentration camps was somewhat known but there is little evidence to show we actually know what was happening. Even when rumors of what might be happening started to come up - most civilized people would dismiss them as preposterous believing no government could be that barbaric. I think it is erroneous to say the US watched what was happening and did nothing. Also remember one important point - the outcome of WWII was never a foregone conclusion - we did not know if we could beat Hitler so the idea that we could have simply marched over and avoid the holocaust is unrealistic. The US did GIVE A DAMN - that is why we sent hundreds of thousands of Americans to fight on foreign soil. No - Kosovo has little in common with WWII.

Name: DO AMERICANS UNDERSTAND?

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Message: Do Americans understand that the Administration disgraced itself in the war on Serbia?

Slobodan Milosevic, not America, is responsible for driving cold, hungry, terrified Albanian Kosovars from their homes. But Washington's disgrace is that President Clinton and his top people did not know and did not expect that Mr. Milosevic would use the bombing as an opportunity to expel them by the hundreds of thousands. American leadership still does not seem able to plan more than a couple of days ahead.

So we need no longer worry about America's credibility; we have none. MORE...

Name: LVD

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Indfference to the suffering of others, sometimes leads to a Holocaust.

AS for the war in Serbia there is no answer. War is Hell. But to turn our back on the butchering of innocent people and the crazy dictator.

Ok gang - time to get a little perspective here! I am not supporting what Milosevic is doing but this is not the holocaust. Milosevic is not herding the Albanians to concentration camps where they are used for slave and/or systematically killed. Milosevic is just kicking the Albanians out of Kosovo - saying "live in peace - just not in Kosovo" This is bad but it is not the holocaust (at least not yet).

Name: John Goldthorp

email: johngold@cyberramp.net

Message: We need to exit Yugoslavia now! I don't understand the problem. I seriously doubt that Washington D.C. understands it either. If you want to solve this problem, send in ground troups, push the Serbs out of the way, and clean up the mess. And accept the political cost of the decision. I don't want to solve this centuries old problem -- just get out and admit defeat. Save our declining military resources for a better cause than this. Try if you can to have the Russians look stupid over this -- if they can be made to look any more stupid than they already are.

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Message: THE NEW YORK TIMES
April 9, 1999
OP-ED
Why Is Belgrade a Target?
By DENNIS J. KUCINICH

The world's democracies have a responsibility to relieve the suffering of the people of Kosovo, to insure that the refugees can return to an autonomous nation and to help rebuild the province and prosecute war criminals. That is why I voted my support for President Clinton's initiatives and for the use of American soldiers in keeping the peace in the region.

Yet NATO is now engaged in a bombing campaign in which the destruction of the civilian infrastructure of Yugoslavia has become part of the strategy to end the war on Kosovo. We say our quarrel is with President Slobodan Milosevic and his army, yet instead of doing all that we can to directly confront that military we are bringing down terror on the Serbian people. What has this bombing accomplished? It has not stopped the ethnic cleansing or the grim procession of hundreds of thousands of refugees.

So I must challenge NATO's justification for its military campaign against civilians -- before we destroy all the bridges in Belgrade and Novi Sad; before we obliterate the power plants, water systems, roads and telecommunications centers that serve civilian populations; before we begin hearing the the phrase "collateral damage" routinely. Otherwise, NATO's actions will destabilize the region for decades to come.

As a start, NATO should honor a cease-fire this weekend of Orthodox Christian Easter -- not because of Mr. Milosevic's feigned concern for the faith of his people, but to show genuine respect for the civilian population's religion.

The bombings in Belgrade and Novi Sad punish people who have already suffered under Mr. Milosevic's authoritarian regime. NATO's a

Name: Editor to LVD

email: Shakespeare

Message: LVD, as I have often said: if I wrote that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow you will come up with an argument against it. Now you are getting even worse: you are arguing against the law of gravity!

These two saying mean exactly the same:
Condemn the Fault and not the Actor of it
Hate the Sin but Love the Sinner
A prescription for healing, and, IMHO, important Pearls of Wisdom

But I do thank you for going posting a little more Shakespeare on this board. I really enjoyed reading it.

Name: LVD

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The Fecal Matter has hit the fan for Susan McDougal - Business Card of Clinton Defense Fund Donor Found in Law Book Confiscated from McDougal Juror; Judge Orders FBI Witness Tampering Probe! It looks like the corruption of the Clinton Administration has now been connect with Susan McDougal - THIS IS BIG! THIS IS REALLY BIG! Susan may not be the only one spending time is jail!

Name: LVD to Editor

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LVD, as I have often said: if I wrote that the sun will rise in the east tomorrow you will come up with an argument against it.

This is amazing - I just PROVED that you were completely wrong and you completely took the Shakespeare quote out of context - what is you point. I proved you are wrong - it does not get any clearer than THAT. I don't care how you feel about it (although it is good to feel good) but the FACTS are the FACTS and SHAKESPEARE is SHAKESPEARE. You completely misunderstood the quote - that is all.

These two saying mean exactly the same:
Condemn the Fault and not the Actor of it
Hate the Sin but Love the Sinner

NO they do NOT - READ the context of the Shakespeare quote - it actually in contexts it means the complete opposite! And you are taking the bible quote completely out of context - if does not mean you can get away with sin - NOT AT ALL. It means GOD is the judge - not YOU.

Man - you liberals are amazing. Even when proven wrong - you claim you are correct.

I have a problem with people that bend and contort quotes or the bible to fulfill there needs (usually to justify an actions or activity for which they feel guilty)

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Name: LVD

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One more time:

Condemn the fault and not the actor of it?
Why, every fault's condemn'd ere it be done:

The say "condemn the fault and not the actor - you have got to be kidding - Why, every fault condemns the person that did it"

Name: LVD

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Message: Stop the presses - the Judge just decided NOT to investigate Witness tampering (the Judge was seen leaving the court in a brand new Porsche with a the Penthouse Pet of the Month in the passenger seat and was unavailable for further comment - OK, I made that part up)

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Message: Text of Bill Clinton's Letter to ROTC Colonel

W.J .Clinton
12/3/69 self

Text of Bill Clinton's Letter to ROTC Colonel

I am sorry to be so long in writing. I know I promised to let you hear from me at least once a month, and from now on you will, but I have had to have some time to think about this first letter. Almost daily since my return to England I have thought about writing, about what I want to and ought to say.

First, I want to thank you, not just for saving me from the draft, but for being so kind and decent to me last summer, when I was as low as I have ever been. One thing which made the bond we struck in good faith somewhat palatable to me was my high regard for you personally. In retrospect, it seems that the admiration might not have been mutual had you known a little more about me, about my political beliefs and activities. At least you might have thought me more fit for the draft than for ROTC.

Let me try to explain. As you know, I worked for two years in a very minor position on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. I did it for the experience and the salary but also for the opportunity, however small, of working every day against a war I opposed and despised with a depth of feeling I had reserved solely for racism in America before Vietnam. I did not take the matter lightly but studied it carefully, and there was a time when not many people had more information about Vietnam at hand than I did.

I have written and spoken and marched against the war. One of the national organizers of the Vietnam Moratorium is a close friend of mine. After I left Arkansas last summer, I went to Washington to work in the national headquarters of the Moratorium, then to England to organize the Americans here for demonstrations Oct. 15 and Nov. 16.

Interlock with the war is the draft issue, which I did not begin to consider separately until early 1968. For a law seminar at Georgetown I wrote a paper on the legal arguments for and against allowing, within the Selective Service System, the classification of selective conscientious objection for those opposed to participation in a particular war, not simply to "participation in war in any form."

From my work I came to believe that the draft system itself is illegitimate. No government really rooted in limited, parliamentary democracy should have the power to make its citizens fight and kill and die in a war they may oppose, a war which even possibly may be wrong, a war which, in any case, does not involve immediately the peace and freedom of the nation. The draft was justified in World War II because the life of the people collectively was at stake. Individuals had to fight, if the nation was to survive, for the lives of their countrymen and their way of life. Vietnam is no such case. Nor was Korea an example where, in my opinion, certain military action was justified but the draft was not, for the reasons stated above.

Because of my opposition to the draft and the war. I am in great sympathy with those who are not willing to fight, kill and maybe die for their country (i.e. the particular policy of a particular government) right or wrong. Two of my friends at Oxford are conscientious objectors. I wrote a letter of recommendation for one of them to his Mississippi draft board, a letter which I am more proud of than anything else I wrote at Oxford last year. One of my roommates is a draft resister who is possibly under indictment and may never be able to go home again. He is one of the bravest, best men I know. His country needs men like him more than they know. That he is considered a criminal is an obscenity.

The decision not to be a resister and the related subsequent decisions were the most difficult of my life. I decided to accept the draft in spite of my beliefs for one reason: to maintain my political viability within the system. For years I have worked to prepare myself for a political life characterized by both practical political ability and concern for rapid social progress. It is a life I still feel compelled to try to lead. I do not think our system of government is by definition corrupt, however dangerous and inadequate it has been in recent years. (The society may be corrupt, but that is not the same thing, and if that is true, we are all finished anyway.)

When the draft came, despite political convictions, I was having a hard time facing the prospect of fighting a war I had been fighting against, and that is why I contacted you. ROTC was the one way left in which I could possibly, but not positively, avoid both Vietnam and resistance. Going on with my education, even coming back to England, played no part in my decision to join ROTC. I am back here, and would have been at Arkansas Law School because there is nothing else I can do. In fact, I would like to have been able to take a year out perhaps to reach in a small college or work on some community action project and in the process to decide whether to attend law school or graduate school and how to begin putting what I have learned to use.

But the particulars of my personal life are not nearly as important to me as the principles involved. After I signed the ROTC letter of intent, I began to wonder whether the compromise I had made with myself was not more objectionable than the draft would have been, because I had no interest in the ROTC program in itself and all I seemed to have done was to protect myself from physical harm. Also, I began to think I had deceived you, not by lies--there were none--but by failing to tell you all the things I'm writing now. I doubt that I had the mental coherence to articulate them then.

At that time, after we had made our agreement and you had sent my 1-D deferment to my draft board, the anguish and loss of my self-regard and self-confidence really set in. I hardly slept for weeks and kept going by eating compulsively and reading until exhaustion brought sleep. Finally, on Sept. 12 I stayed up all night writing a letter to the chairman of my draft board, saying basically what is in the preceding paragraph, thanking him for trying to help in a case where he really couldn't, and stating that I couldn't do the ROTC after all and would he please draft me as soon as possible.

I never mailed the letter, but I did carry it on me every day until I got on the plane to return to England. I didn't mail the letter because I didn't see, in the end, how my going in the Army and maybe going to Vietnam would achieve anything except a feeling that I had punished myself and gotten what I deserved. So I came back to England to try to make something of this second year of my Rhodes scholarship.

And that is where I am now, writing to you because you have been good to me and have a right to know what I think and feel. I am writing too in the hope that my telling this one story will help you to understand more clearly how so many fine people have come to find themselves still loving their country but loathing the military, to which you and other good men have devoted years, lifetimes, of the best service you could give. To many of us, it is no longer clear what is service and what is disservice, or if it is clear, the conclusion is likely to be illegal.

Forgive the length of this letter. There was much to say. There is still a lot to be said, but it can wait. Please say hello to Col. Jones for me.

Merry Christmas.

Sincerely, Bill Clinton.

Name: Wee-Willey-Jeff

email: to Spelling NAZI / Editor

Message: I spell how I feel, ergo it can't be wrong. Besides, I type quickly and don't check. You are really messing with my self esteem, you know.

Keep it up and I'll cancell your special reservation in the Oval Office bathroom ;>

Yo, LVD, speaking of the Bible, Bernie Ward, Alan Dershowitz, and mst other liberals compared me to King David, that great mighty king of old who got caught porking some babe. I feel very close to God now!

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Name: Sandi Hobson

email: sandi@maccorkle.com

Message: Dear Mrs. Clinton: my family and I have the utmost respect for you and your principles. My 7 year old son has to do a "Woman's Study" report for his 2nd grade class. He chose you, and I am thrilled. You are someone I respect tremendously and I would appreciate any information you might find appropriate, to help my son with his report. Obviously, I have followed the situtation in Kosovo and am deeply moved by our involvement. However, my son is only 7, and I believe your work with children in our own country will have much more importance to him at this time. Please provide whatever information you feel appropriate. Thank you for your help. Sincerely, Sandi Hobson P.S. If I lived in NY you would definately have my vote. If we did not already have wonderful Senators, I beg you to move here, to CA!!!!!

Name: Night-Editor to LVD

email:

Message:

"I have one word to say as a retort: Rwanda"

I have one word to say in retort to Rwanda: pick your battles First rule of law in war.

Choosing your battle is both both strategic and instinctual.

Name: florence HP

email: mandreewsky@innaphase.com

Message: MRS Clinton, What are you doing today? Your husband has decided to "welcome" the refugees in GUANTANAMO.I know that it is impossible for you and Bill to talk together,but,you perfectly know that the moment has come for you to do something. What is going to happen in GUANTANAMO? These refugees know nothing but the immemorial laws of the balkanians mountains. These people have struggled for the right of living on the land of their ancestors.Bill is quite smart;He does not want the Albanese in the Big Apple. Maffiosi... There are enough of them in N.Y AND ELSEWHERE. Please, let's Wake up before it's too late! In France,we can do nothing but call a number our Prime Minister has given to the people to take refugees in our homes,the lucky few of us who still have one. Refugees arrive everyday, and they need our help. All these people will never go back, and it seems that your husband doesn't care. Mrs Clinton, don't forget you are both The First Lady and yourself. CLOSE the door , have a cup of tea and think. I am a woman; I also have a husband and children. As everybody, I don't want that war. YOUR Congress has not declared war ,talk to your husband; bring him back to reality!!! Don't let him be overwhelmed by "ses courtisans". Please don't let him change his personal war into the III World War. This must stop. I have read the news since the beginning; not one newspaper, i have had time to read the press, "Le Monde", "Liberation", "Le Soir" (Belgian),and this short letter is a tiny water drop in an ocean. I hope that you will read me.Don't let Humanity come back to the Stone Age. all the best, Florence HP.

Name: florence HP

email: mandreewsky@innaphase.com

Message: MRS Clinton, What are you doing today? Your husband has decided to "welcome" the refugees in GUANTANAMO.I know that it is impossible for you and Bill to talk together,but,you perfectly know that the moment has come for you to do something. What is going to happen in GUANTANAMO? These refugees know nothing but the immemorial laws of the balkanians mountains. These people have struggled for the right of living on the land of their ancestors.Bill is quite smart;He does not want the Albanese in the Big Apple. Maffiosi... There are enough of them in N.Y AND ELSEWHERE. Please, let's Wake up before it's too late! In France,we can do nothing but call a number our Prime Minister has given to the people to take refugees in our homes,the lucky few of us who still have one. Refugees arrive everyday, and they need our help. All these people will never go back, and it seems that your husband doesn't care. Mrs Clinton, don't forget you are both The First Lady and yourself. CLOSE the door , have a cup of tea and think. I am a woman; I also have a husband and children. As everybody, I don't want that war. YOUR Congress has not declared war ,talk to your husband; bring him back to reality!!! Don't let him be overwhelmed by "ses courtisans". Please don't let him change his personal war into the III World War. This must stop. I have read the news since the beginning; not one newspaper, i have had time to read the press, "Le Monde", "Liberation", "Le Soir" (Belgian),and this short letter is a tiny water drop in an ocean. I hope that you will read me.Don't let Humanity come back to the Stone Age. all the best, Florence HP.

Name:

email:

Message:p The GUARDIAN/The OBSERVER We'll Stay Out Of It, Russia Tells Cook From the Press Association
Saturday April 10, 1999 5:34 pm

Russia has played down warnings that it was prepared to enter the Kosovo conflict as Foreign Minister Igor Ivanov assured Britain that they had no intention of intervening.

As Nato air attacks on Yugoslavia were hampered by a second night of bad weather over the Balkans, Mr Ivanov spoke for 45 minutes by telephone with Foreign Secretary Robin Cook.

It followed the dramatic warning given on Friday by President Boris Yeltsin that Russia would not permit Nato to mount a ground invasion of Kosovo - raising the spectre of a third world war.

A Foreign Office spokesman said: "Mr Ivanov gave an assurance that Russia had no intention of becoming involved in any confrontation in the Balkans and no wish to see any escalation.

"The Foreign Secretary welcomed that assurance. They both agreed that they should maintain close contact to try to avoid any increase in tension and to maintain the strong relationship between the two countries."

Foreign Office sources suggested that Mr Yeltsin's outspoken remarks may have had more to do with political pressures in Russia where he has come under attack for failing to prevent Nato bombing.

Nevertheless, there is still deep disquiet in Moscow at the continuing onslaught against the Serbs, a traditional Russian ally.

Name: Snezana Lazovic

email: snezana@sympatico.ca

Message: VAISTINU VASKRESE / TRULY HE IS RISEN

   To all Orthodox Christians who celebrate the resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the Old Calendar, sincerest wishes for a blessed and joyous holiday.   

Hristos voskrese iz mertvih, smertiju smert poprav i sussccim vo grobjeh zzivot darova.

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Message: p> THE GUARDIAN (U.K.)< Stop the war. Nato should lose By Richard Gott
Saturday April 10, 1999

The shameful destruction of Yugoslavia by aerial bombardment, a Nato operation in which the British Government is participating, will be seen as one of the great climactic moments of the 20th century. When it is over, the world will never be quite the same again.

Suez, Munich, the futile battles of the first world war, all left the indelible mark of failure on a generation of politicians, and now Blair, Cook, Robertson, and Short - the most visible of the absurdly belligerent gang in the Downing Street bunker - will enter the rogues' gallery of historical obloquy from which there is no appeal.

Yugoslavia has never been a country about which we know nothing. From the pistol shot in Sarajevo in 1914 to the assassin's bullet in the Serbian king on the waterfront at Marseilles in 1934, from the partisan struggle against the Nazis in the second world war to the heroic Titoist resistance to Stalin during the early years of the cold war, Yugoslavia has enjoyed a special and privileged place in British memories and history books.

British officers fought with the partisans, British leftists helped build the roads and railways that consolidated Tito's independence from the Soviet Union. People throughout the world applauded when Tito, Nehru and Nasser embarked on the construction of a Third World free from colonial rule and the threat of superpower nuclear weapons.

Those achievements, those bonds of solidarity, those visions of an alternative future, are not the least among the items wiped out in these nightly orgies of destruction.

Far worse is to come. The bombing of Yugoslavia has already destroyed the UN, mortally wounded by its pusillanimous role in smashing up Iraq. A hundred years of radical and well-intentioned effort, to establish an international system capable of setting limits to the imperial ambitions of great powers, has been brought to an abrupt end. It will take years to devise a replacement.

The collusion of the governments of Western Europe with the US bombing, and their participation in this evil air campaign, has destroyed what's left of European social democracy, closing down a century and a half of progressive thought and action originally designed to establish rational governments in individual states, to promote social and economic justice at home - and peace abroad.

You do not need the mechanistic approach of a fresh century to perceive that the 200-year-old dreams of the French Revolution of 1789, and the 100-year-old aspirations of the Russian Revolution of 1917, have all been swept away in the past decade. Now the bombing has rubbed the slate entirely clean. We are in a new world.

What through the imagination of artists over the centuries we have come to perceive as Biblical scenes, nightly displayed in awesome aesthetic on the television screen, are not the machinations of some evil individual, some new Hitler bent on re-enacting the earlier tragedies of Central Europe. They are the ineluctable working-out of an historical process.

It is futile to demonise the Serb leadership. They carry their full share of blame, yet in truth they are cardboard, insubstantial figures, so much flotsam on the great periodic waves of historic hatred and anger that move across the face of the Balkans. Just as much to blame are the prevaricating diplomats and politicians of the western world, and their armchair strategists in the press.

Also apparently guilty and complicit is an irresponsible public opinion, lured into parading its conscience and allegedly demanding action, meddling with an unravelling tapestry of which it can only have the measure of the fringe.

At bottom there remains the terrible truth that the volcanic catastrophe of the sudden Kosovo population displacements were triggered by the Nato bombing, and by the decision of Western governments to impose impossible conditions on the Serbian sovereign state. We knew it would happen, the Serbs said it would happen, and it did happen.

This is not the first time in recent history that the choices made by the great powers have led to catastrophe for the people on the ground. The British decision to partition India, granting independence to two successor states, brought disaster to the Punjab. The British and UN decision to wash their hands of Palestine brought endless decades of tragedy to the Middle East.

The effects of those decisions are still with us, yet they seem, in retrospect, to be the almost inevitable accompaniment to colonial withdrawal.

What we are witnessing today is something entirely new. The West thought it was going to war against Yugoslavia to prevent something happening, and by its very actions it has caused that dreaded something to take place. Two weeks before the bombing there was an Albanian population in Kosovo. Four weeks later that population has evaporated across the frontier before our eyes.

Whether Nato planned for this eventuality, or whether it was unexpected, is beside the point. Whether anyone ever looked up from the minutiae on the diplomats' negotiating table to glance at the wider picture will be left to historians to pore over and to judge. We are left with the results of a policy that has failed on a cataclysmic scale.

To imagine a fresh policy is not so difficult, to make it happen is virtually impossible. Britain, the US, and the Nato alliance have suffered the most dramatic defeat. Their aim of liberating the population of Kosovo from Serb misrule has been achieved at the expense of the people themselves.

The Serbs may suffer from the bombing and the destruction of their country's infrastructure, but the ethnic Albanian inhabitants of Kosovo have lost their country altogether.

First, the bombing must stop. It is not just counter-productive, it is intrinsically evil, pointless, and degrading to those who order it to be done - the democratically-elected governments of the West.

Impetuous voices will be heard suggesting that we should ally ourselves to the Kosovo Liberation Army, and engage ourselves more deeply in their nationalist struggle. Nothing could be more foolish. Others talk of establishing 'a protectorate', where foreign troops would establish security in the Balkans through alien military rule. This would amount to a new colonialism, a strange development at the end of a century devoted to trying to rid the world of that particular scourge.

Some are fearful of humiliation. If this defeat is allowed to happen, Nato's new future is at risk. Yet maybe that would be no bad thing. During the decade since the collapse of the post-war settlement established in the years after 1945, the lineaments of a new system have slowly begun to emerge.

Strobe Talbott, the malign US deputy secretary of state and the chief architect of the current disaster, has outlined recently a future transatlantic military relationship in which the US provides the technology and the intelligence for future global actions, and the Europeans provide the body bags and their contents.

This is the redesigned Nato we are being offered in the 50th anniversary year, and the project to which the Blair Government has signed up. If Nato's defeat wakes us up to what is being planned, then it may actually serve some useful purpose.

Lastly, we have to abandon the idea of recovering the land of Kosovo and settling it again in the interests of the ethnic Albanians. One day, in some future cycle of Balkan violence, the Albanians may do just that, but that time is not now. The international community, that imaginary construct, must begin to learn that some questions do not have an answer, and some problems do not have a solution. THE GUARDIAN (U.K.)

Name: Wee-Willey-Jeff

email:

Message: Dang! Too much rain to golf! Hillary's troll-like, gestapo interns now seem to patrol the White House like they own it. Talk about a bunch of FUGLY, mean rodents! Ugh! Every one of them a three bagger.

All the local strippers know who I am and cain't wait to sell their story to MSNBC, but, dang it, I need a date!

to be continued.....

Name: Message for W-W-J

email:

Message: Your sex life will be over if you don't get us out of the Kosovo mess, WWJ. No bimbo will ever look at you again. Those "FUGLY" gestapo interns will look beautiful to you after a long period of sexual starvation.

Your legacy will go down in history as the US President who spearheaded the demise of NATO! Which is a whole lot worse than your sex scandals. You will exit the highest office in ignominy. I told you to focus on miracles, not babes. Only a miracle will save us now. Better start thinking like you have never thought before. This is one rabbit you'd better pull out of the hat or you are toast!

Not to mention the Hillary Clinton Forum -- What are we going to do with this Forum if you lose the war? You have ruined everything. Forget golf - start thinking.

Name:

email:

Message: Click here for Hillary_Clinton_Forum_76 to continue discussions and leave messages. This forum is too long.

Click here for theMAIN FORUM to review past messages and pictures

Click here to go to the Home Page: www.hillary.org to review articles from MSNBC, Newsweek, THE TIMES of London, TIME.com and photo of Hillary on the cover of Vogue, December 1998

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Message: "Pick your battles" is three words.

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Name: Al DePanzu

email:

Message: Stand by your Rapist, little lady.

Name: Butt-Head

email:

Message: Heh,heheh,heh,heh, like, have you ever, like, 'munched-out' with Janet Reno? Heh, heh, heheheh, heh, like, that would be cool. Heh, heh.

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Message: I thinks we is got do like when we was fiting germans of hitlerland. cus they dont has diversity and wes got to send mr.doctor Jessie Jackson to create peace for dems serbians ans sets up some programs like we got for urban city areas.

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