Hillary Clinton Forum.- Everybody Welcome to debate the issues, leave messages, cartoons and articles.

Another crude slur
With a campaign of distortion and lies, the right-wing smear machine is trying to impugn the military honor of John Kerry.

- - - - - - - - - - - -
By Joe Conason

March 6, 2004 | The contrast between the military careers of George W. Bush and John Kerry is drawing veterans to the Democratic Party -- and maddening conservative Republicans who have grown accustomed to monopolizing the symbolism of flag and country. To tarnish Kerry, the right has reached back more than 30 years to develop a narrative that transforms him from hero to traitor, by distorting his antiwar activism after he returned from Vietnam.

They hope to convince America that by testifying and organizing for peace, the young Navy lieutenant somehow "dishonored" his fellow sailors and soldiers.

This effort began quite crudely, with the anonymous distribution of a faked photo of Kerry with Jane Fonda. But now Kerry critics are focused on the so-called "Winter Soldier" investigation -- a public event staged in January 1971 by Kerry and other leaders of Vietnam Veterans Against the War to expose the brutality and devastation of the Indochina conflict.

The right-wing extremists at Free Republic have set up a new "Winter Soldier" Web site devoted to that event, highlighting Kerry's subsequent testimony before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee about alleged U.S. war crimes. According to the Freeper theory, he "launched his political career" by denigrating his comrades in arms, although nobody who reads his testimony will find much evidence to support that accusation. (He did run for Congress in 1972 -- and lost in part because of his VVAW connections.)

Coordinating with the Freeper attack are Texas chicken-hawk Rep. Tom DeLay, who recently upbraided Kerry for the Winter Soldier episode, and Gary Aldrich, the former White House FBI agent who fabricated salacious stories about Bill and Hillary Clinton, who now suspects that Kerry was "pro-Communistic" and is demanding to see his old FBI files.

Meanwhile, the National Review descended still further, featuring a weird article by Romania's former Communist spy chief, in which he insinuates that Kerry, and anyone else who talked about atrocities in Vietnam, was really an instrument of KGB propaganda. (It is remarkable to see a "conservative" magazine publish a smear written by a man who once facilitated the atrocities of the Ceausescu regime.) The essay by Ion Mihai Pacepa, who defected to the West in 1978, is titled "Kerry's Soviet Rhetoric," and claims that his testimony about the war in 1971 "sounds exactly like the disinformation line that the Soviets were sowing worldwide throughout the Vietnam era."

Had Kerry said or done something stupid at the impressionable age of 25 -- after surviving horrific jungle warfare that had cost the lives of several close friends -- his furious protests would be forgivable more than 30 years later. He, too, might have been "young and foolish when he was young and foolish," as a famous man put it. But in contrast to the VVAW's radicalized veterans and other elements of the antiwar movement, Kerry was sober and mature. Some of his own allies openly disdained him for his moderation. Although he, too, was disillusioned and angry, Kerry insisted on working "within the system." During that period he spent much of his energy trying to register young people to vote for antiwar congressional candidates.

It's also true that he led raucous demonstrations in Washington, and participated in the "Winter Soldier" hearings. When he appeared before the Senate three months later, he spoke at length about reported American atrocities, attributing most of the specific allegations to veterans who had testified during Winter Soldier. Graphic references to rape, dismemberment and murder took up less than a paragraph of his lengthy testimony, but they certainly brought no credit on the U.S. military. Yet his eloquent words won bipartisan praise from the senators who listened to him.

Kerry didn't join the antiwar movement to indict his fellow soldiers; he often spoke with passion about the injustices done to them, both during the war and when they returned home to inadequate medical care and an indifferent government. His purpose was to prevent more of them from being killed, as he said over and over again.

He didn't try to absolve himself when denouncing the indiscriminate violence of the war. On "Meet the Press," he confessed that he had participated in "the same kind of atrocities as thousands of other soldiers have committed in that I took part in shootings in free-fire zones." But he felt strongly that U.S. military commanders and civilian policymakers were far more culpable for those atrocities than the men who obeyed their orders. Appalled by the civilian casualties in the "free-fire zones" marked out by their commanders, Kerry and other junior officers had gone to Saigon in January 1969 to complain to their superior -- and were of course ignored.

The free-fire zones, the use of napalm, the carpet-bombing and the assassination programs were all aspects of a guerrilla conflict that could not be prosecuted without killing thousands of civilians. Only by falsifying history -- and assuming that nobody will remember the truth -- can Kerry's right-wing critics claim that he somehow misled the country about what was happening in Vietnam. The smear depends on historical amnesia.

Last year the suppressed recollections of that disturbing past emerged again, when investigative journalist Gregory Vistica revealed wartime secrets long concealed by Bob Kerrey. Although the most incriminating details remain disputed, the former senator and Congressional Medal of Honor winner has admitted that he and Navy SEALS under his command massacred civilians during a nighttime raid on a hamlet called Thanh Phong in 1969. The ensuing debate over his conduct revived searing memories of My Lai, the village where hundreds of civilians were raped and murdered in March 1968 by U.S. soldiers.

In 1971, John Kerry told the Senate that if William Calley and the other soldiers who committed those atrocities were guilty, then so were the commanders who had made such crimes inevitable and then covered them up. "I think if you are going to try Lieutenant Calley then you must at the same time, if this country is going to demand respect for the law, you must at the same time try all those other people who have responsibility, and any aversion that we may have to the verdict as veterans is not to say that Calley should be freed, not to say that he is innocent, but to say that you can't just take him alone." Kerry's critics argue that My Lai was an isolated incident, but at least one celebrated general doesn't agree.

Secretary of State Colin Powell held a command position in the Army's Americal Division, which had included Calley's unit, and he was asked to investigate the earliest allegations about My Lai. He failed to uncover the massacre and was later accused of facilitating the coverup. Whether that accusation is fair or not, Powell knows what happened in Vietnam.

"My Lai was an appalling example of much that had gone wrong in Vietnam," he wrote in his bestselling autobiography, "My American Journey." "The involvement of so many unprepared officers and noncoms led to breakdowns in morale, discipline and professional judgment -- and to horrors like My Lai -- as the troops became numb to what appeared to be endless and mindless slaughter." For some reason, despite his loyalty to the president, Powell doesn't seem eager to attack John Kerry. source...

Name:

Individual

Message:
It's easy to attack Kerry's service--especially when our heroic president was cutting a fat hog back in the states when Kerry was in Vietnam.

Name:	SonofPurpleHeart
Re:	John Kerry's Military Records Deserve Scrutiny

Message:
By William Fielder March 18, 2004

If current revelations in print are valid, Senator John Kerry, front-runner for the Democratic Party presidential nomination, has a golden opportunity to set straight both his personal war record, and restore the country's faith in the veterans his organization smeared and dehumanized. In the Washington Post of February 23rd, Joshua Muravchik reported that as a spokesman for Vietnam Veterans Against the War (VVAW), Kerry, accused American soldiers in Vietnam, before the U.S. Congress in 1971, of... "war crimes...committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command."

Then Kerry detailed the crimes of our troops (on a day to day basis with the full awareness of officers) to the stunned senators: "They had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in fashion reminiscent of Genghis Kahn, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam.."

Kerry may have had reference to his own experiences, but was also referencing the statements of a group of supposed ex-service members. For his book "Stolen Valor," B.G. Burkett recontacted these authorities and found their stories were generally bogus, or they were simply impostors. Kerry appeared on Meet the Press with one fabricator, Al Hubbard, but Kerry never disassociated himself from Hubbard's lies. Nevertheless, in the wake of Kerry's testimony, and as a result of demonstrations launched by VVAW (an organization led by Kerry, and funded by Jane Fonda), the stereotype of the drug-crazed, psychologically-damaged, deranged and socially uncommunicative Vietnam veteran was spawned. Taunts of "baby-killer," and "murderer" were common. Although no war is free of atrocities, Vietnam veterans who never perpetrated or ordered such acts, were denied their deserved respect.

However, that may soon change, if Senator Kerry will only cooperate. In early March, 2004, the Washington Times revealed a statement by former assistant secretary of defense W. Scott Thompson, who recalled a conversation with former chief of naval operations Elmo R. Zumwalt, Jr. Zumwalt, who commanded naval forces in Vietnam, and had personally decorated Kerry, said that Kerry had created "great problems" for him and other Navy brass... "by killing so many non-combatant civilians and going after other non-military targets." The admiral reportedly added, "We had virtually to straitjacket him to keep him under control..."

Kerry had his first Purple Heart within 24 hours of taking command of his swiftboat on December 1,1968, and accumulated 3 such decorations for "wounds," but never spent a day in the hospital. Unfortunately, Kerry will not permit his treatment records, nor his recommendations/citations for valor, to be disclosed. Further, Kerry's biography, "Tour of Duty" by Douglas Brinkley, reprises a 2001 appearance by Kerry on Meet the Press wherein Kerry admitted to committing "the same kinds of atrocities as thousands of others" (thousands?), during his brief 5 months in the combat zone. (There were no daily acts of compassion?)

Kudos to Kerry for confessing to personal outrages--but that doesn't make the rest of us "criminals." If Kerry's conduct was indeed atrocious, and the statements attributed to Admiral Zumwalt are correct, a fuller explanation is definitely necessary. Vietnam veterans should demand, in addition to Kerry's release of records, a statement of apology for his personal war crimes. He should also admit that his broad brush characterization of Vietnam veterans as "criminals" was based on bogus confessions from fabricators and liars in the Kerry-Fonda anti-war cabal. He must not be allowed to perpetuate the fantasy that all Vietnam veterans are responsible for routine and sanctioned crimes against non-combatants. Vietnam veterans should contact the Kerry campaign (info@johnkerry.com) with demands for a full redress. We must seek justice for the families of the 58,000 besmirched patriots who died--and the rest of us just want our honor back. Source: Accuracy in Media

Name:	Why Do Dems Lie?
Re:	Kerry Makes Bogus Comparison to Great Depression

Message:
He claims US suffers greatest job loss since the 30's, which is not true John Kerry didn’t make it through the third paragraph of his formal announcement speech before stumbling over a key fact about the U.S. economy. In his Sept. 2 speech in South Carolina, Kerry claimed the U.S. is suffering “the greatest job loss since the Great Depression.” That’s wrong. Source:www.factcheck.org

Name:	The Real Deal
Re:	Funding for Veterans up 27%, But Democrats Call It A Cut

Message:
Money for Veterans goes up faster under Bush than under Clinton, yet Kerry accuses Bush of an unpatriotic breach of faith. In the Feb. 15 Democratic debate, Kerry suggested that Bush was being unpatriotic: “He’s cut the VA (Veterans Administration) budget and not kept faith with veterans across this country. And one of the first definitions of patriotism is keeping faith with those who wore the uniform of our country.”

It is true that Bush is not seeking as big an increase for next year as the Secretary of Veterans Affairs wanted. It is also true that the administration has tried to slow the growth of spending for veterans by not giving new benefits to some middle-income vets.

Yet even so, funding for veterans is going up twice as fast under Bush as it did under Clinton. And the number of veterans getting health benefits is going up 25% under Bush's budgets. That's hardly a cut.

Name:

Individual

In response to:
“the greatest job loss since the Great Depression.”

Message:
Close enough. It is criminal what Bush is doing to get campaign money from his wealthy contributors. Net job losses for the first time since the great depression under another republican, Herbert Hoover even after running monstrous deficits.

Name:

Individual

Message:
The image of Bush cuttin' a fat hog while others were fighting and dying in Vietnam should be used over and over again. Our heroic president.

In his Sept. 2 speech in South Carolina, Kerry claimed the U.S. is suffering “the greatest job loss since the Great Depression.” That’s Right. Source:www.DemocraticSource.org

Name:

Individual

In response to:
Yet even so, funding for veterans is going up twice as fast under Bush as it did under Clinton. And the number of veterans getting health benefits is going up 25% under Bush's budgets. That's hardly a cut.

Message:
Not surprising. But I know Kerry can do better. If he has the correct tax plan and he allows the government to negotiate with drug companies for lower prices for Medicare, Kerry will be able to do the right thing as regards Veterans.

Name:

Morris

Message:
As former Clinton advisor Morris wrote in the Hill this week, Kerry and Bush "each owns an issue."

Name:

SUV

In response to:
As former Clinton advisor Morris wrote in the Hill this week, Kerry and Bush "each owns an issue." Kerry wins on the economy; Bush wins on terrorism. Whoever can force the other to run on his issue may win the election

To Morris, finally somebody is saying something intelligent on this forum rather than throwing insults at the other person's personals beliefs.

Name:

Real Individual

Message:
What does a career Indian protester do when he realizes the Left has failed him and his people? Ask Russell Means, Olgala Sioux of Pine Ridge, South Dakota. Mr. Means recently endorsed Republican John Thune’s bid for the Senate. Thune is running against Democrat incumbent Tom Daschle. Means now calls himself a “Lakota Libertarian Republican.”

It makes perfect sense. There has been little improvement in Indian country under the Democrats. Conditions in South Dakota reservations certainly haven’t improved under Daschle. What’s an Indian to do politically? "I'm going to work with Sen. Thune's staff,” says Means, “and the state Republican Party, and that will open doors to work with the National Republican Party to completely change Indian policy in America."

For some years, in fact, Means has recognized the impotence of the Democratic Party’s approach to Indian problems. He joined the Libertarian Party in 1987, and ran as the Libertarian candidate for governor of New Mexico in 2002. “What is an American? I believe an American loves to be free. You are free to be responsible. That's the only rule you should understand,” Means says.

That American freedom does not exist on the great Indian reservations. In fact, tyrannical communism reigns on the reservations. Means explains, “This [America] is the only place where communism is successfully practiced in the world. Communism is alive and well on Indian reservations run by the United States government.”

The Republican ticket may offer Indians an alternative, says Thune, and he has more than just Russell Means behind him.

Bruce Whalen, also an Oglala Sioux of Pine Ridge, is committee chairman of the Republican Party in Shannon County. Whalen says, "I know there's a lot of Republicans out there on Pine Ridge. They just don't know it yet.”

Whalen believes the Republican Party more closely mirrors his traditional Lakota values than the Democratic Party. Those values are respect for life, limited government, sovereignty and local control.

Whalen believes government-funded programs and tribal politics that dole out the money are the root of the reservation's poverty. Alcoholism and other abuses follow suit.

“I see how the social programs are devastating the people around here,” he said. “The Democrats are hurting us.”

Thune agrees. Indians will identify with Republicans if members of the party take the time to explain what the party stands for. Thune thinks the idea of less government translates into freedom and sovereignty for Indians.

But with the BIA in charge, “it's pure communism,” says Russell Means, “and it's an abject failure. Just like it was in the Soviet Union. It's failure. You've created a dictatorship by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.”

Means recalls, “The Libertarian Party had a party platform that all claims by Indian people would be settled for existing government surplus land, and that would be the end of it; then they'd be on their own. We'd exist as sovereign nations, as protectorates of the United States government, but economically they'd be on their own. And, I pushed for that. And so all claims, all treaty violations would be taken care of, and there'd be no other recourse except in courts of law. Some would fail, some would succeed.”

One Sioux woman, a Sisseton Wahpeton woman of eastern South Dakota, gravely cautions. Betty Ann Gross noted a rift between Indian leaders and Indian people once before, in Sports Illustrated (March 4, 2002). She more recently posted, “I believe it is up to the individual Indian bands in America to make this decision to preserve ‘the Indian’ and it is up to each ‘Indian’ to assist his own reservation, community, family and self.”

In other words, one decision or one solution does not fit all Indian tribes. Each tribe faces different circumstances in terms of size, population, resources, and hence, variant likelihood of success as an independent, sovereign protectorate. And Betty Ann is not so quick to blame the government for all of today’s Indian problems. She is a registered Republican also, but does not expect salvation from a political party.

Interestingly, yet another well-known Oglala Indian, Tim Giago, is running on the Democratic ticket against Tom Daschle. Giago, publisher of The Lakota Journal, is definitely a liberal, but also realizes that Democrats and their Indian casinos have done nothing for Indians.

Russell Means says it’s all about freedom. Which party promises you the most freedom? Which allows the freedom to be responsible? Given the Democratic record of dealing with Indians in South Dakota, there isn’t any doubt in Russell’s mind.

Name:	Fact Check.org
Re:	Did Kerry Vote "No" on Body Armor for Troops?

Message:
Yes, along with $87 billion worth of other things. But Bush didn't send enough in the first place.

Bush-Cheney '04 launched a new attack ad against Kerry in West Virginia on March 16, calling him "wrong on defense" because he voted against last year's $87-billion supplemental appropriation to support military operations and reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan.

The ad characterizes that as voting "against funding our soldiers." It shows Kerry casting specific "no" votes on body armor for troops, higher combat pay and health-care benefits for reservists, all of which were in fact included in the bill.

But it is also true, as Kerry has been saying, that Bush sent US troops to Iraq with too little of the best-grade body armor to equip all who needed it.

On March 18 the Bush campaign updated their ad to include footage of Kerry saying "I actually did vote for the $87 billion before I voted against it." Kerry had co-sponsored an amendment, which was defeated, to pay for the measure by rolling back some of Bush's tax cuts. The Bush campaign said Kerry's words showed him equivocating.

Name:

Why do Dems Lie?

Message:
Democratic Internet Ad Confuses Fiction and Fact Animated cartoon claims Bush cuts education funding, but it's really up 58%. www.factcheck.org

Name:	Madame Bailik
To:	Sane Adults
Re:	The self-described war criminal who would be President, J.F. Kerry-Kohn

In response to:
Kerry had his first Purple Heart within 24 hours of taking command of his swiftboat on December 1,1968, and accumulated 3 such decorations for "wounds," but never spent a day in the hospital. Unfortunately, Kerry will not permit his treatment records, nor his recommendations/citations for valor, to be disclosed

Message:
Kerry (Kohn) is obviously a lying grandstander. In light of Kerry(Kohn)'s post-service record, from his Fonda, Jane days right up to the present, I feel a strong urge to puke whenever this hypocrit and his yapping minions start braying about his truncated military service and his evidently much-magnified and embellished wounds.

Kerry (Kohn) and "Individual", the Marxist, are two of a kind and ought to get married. God knows those two, a self-described War criminal and a Goebbels-esque Marxist propagandist, deserve each other as much as the rest of us deserve far better!

Name:	Quit Taking Soma
To:	Stupid Uneducated Vagrant
Re:	The Meaning of Is

In response to:
In his Sept. 2 speech in South Carolina, Kerry claimed the U.S. is suffering “the greatest job loss since the Great Depression.” That’s Right. Source:www.DemocraticSource.org

Message:
Analysts at the labor-funded Economic Policy Institute state that this was “the worst hiring slump since the Great Depression,” but they were careful – as Kerry and many other Democrats are not – to make clear that they were speaking only of private sector jobs, not total jobs. But the EPI statement is itself misleading, ignoring the fact that government hiring grew even while private-sector businesses shed jobs. As a result, looking only at private jobs makes the job picture look more bleak than it really is. It is true that nearly 3.3 million private sector jobs disappeared between the peak of employment in February 2001 and the depth of the job slump in August, 2003. And that is the highest number of private-sector jobs lost during any slump since 1939 when records first were kept. But that 'record' is due mainly to population growth, not to the severity of this downturn.

Furthermore, many of the government jobs that EPI’s analysis ignores are better than the private sector jobs that disappeared. For proof of this, look no further than the 50,000 federal airport security screeners who now work for the Transportation Safety Administration, replacing low-wage contract employees.

Name:	Fonda, Peter
To:	Yukanuba Grande
Re:	Jugs

In response to:
Fonda, Jane

Name:

Christian Man

Message:
Where is the world's indignation while Kosovo and Albanian Muslims go on a rampage murdering, burning and killing Serbian villagers? Where are they while the Muslims burn churches across Kosovo?

Thank you Bill Clinton.
The Clinton Legacy. That gift that just keeps on giving...

Name:

Cold Hard Fax

Message:
When you vote this November, remember one thing:
Clinton Pardoned many terrorists and killed none.
Bush killed many terrorists and pardoned none.

Which one will protect your children?

Name:

Cold Hard Fax

Message:
REMEMBER:
Democrats pardon Terrorists.
Republicans kill terrorists.

Do you really think that whiner Kerry is up to the job?
He's got more sides than a dodechahedron.

Message:
Hopefully it will not be lost on too many people that Bin Laden and the al Qaida terrorists wanted to throw the election in Spain. They wanted the left wing party to win - under Zapatero.

They blew up a train murdering some 190 innocents and wounding countless others. Spain buckled and voted in Al-Qaida's man, who immediately commanded Americans to vote for Kerry.

Kerry is Al-Qaida's man in America.
If you don't want to get blown up again, vote for Kerry and surrender to Al-Qaida like the Spanish did.

Name:

Citizen

Message:
I didn't think of that.
Al-Qaida sponsored Zapatero, and even threw the election for him.
Zapatero openly sponsors Kerry.
Wow, what an endorsement.

Name:

The Real Deal

Message:
As far as the Democrats care Kerry has one vital qualification... HEB

Name:	Caballo Ridge
Re:	Kerry-Kohn

In response to:
He's got more sides than a dodechahedron

Name:	Festus
Re:	The close-set eyes of a MADMAN!!!!!!!!!!

In response to:
Kerry, John Forbes

Name:	Dean Reimund
To:	C3PO
Re:	Disgusting politico-pimp Kerry-Kohn

In response to:
With a campaign of distortion and lies, the right-wing smear machine is trying to impugn the military honor of John Kerry.

Message:
Hardly! The man is a war criminal. Don't take my word for it. Take his word for it!

Name:

John Kerry

Message:
Hold on, I am a warm human being! I awarded myself three (3) purple hearts, a bronze star and a silver star.

Name:

Max Cleland

Message:
Hey, I tripped and fell out of a helicopter on top of a hand grenade. Why don't I have a purple heart?

Name:	Max
To:	John

Message:
I lost both my legs and an arm. You never missed one day during your four months of service, of duty that should have lasted longer. Why did you chicken out? How did shooting and unarmed teen-aged child affect your service?

Name:	SonofPurpleHeart
Re:	An Open Letter to John Kerry

Message:
By Larry Purdy

Benedict Arnold was a war hero, wounded in battle---before he turned against his country. Hitler was likewise a decorated and wounded veteran of the First World War. Being a war hero is not a lifetime . . . exempt[ion] . . . from responsibility for what you do thereafter. -- Thomas Sowell. [1]

Not that long ago you wrote a letter to President Bush in which you accused him of reopening the wounds of the Vietnam war for “personal political gain.” Putting aside the stunning hypocrisy of your claim in view of your own nonstop references to your service in that conflict, culminating in your most recent campaign advertisement, please allow me to respond.

As a former naval officer who also served in Vietnam, I had thought that tragic war was behind us. I assumed you, too, had put Vietnam behind us. But it has been you---not the President---who has made Vietnam an issue. Speaking personally, I feel you have every right to do so.

Let me begin by saying that during my entire twelve month tour supporting the swift boat division in which you served in An Thoi, as well as the Seawolves (Navy attack helicopters), Strike Attack Boats (STABs) and SEALs in My Tho and Dong Tam, I never once heard reports about, much less witnessed, the sorts of atrocities you have accused American servicemen of committing. What I witnessed were young men, often frightened at the prospect of operating in areas largely controlled by the enemy, who did their jobs as skillfully and honorably as they knew how. While I do not presume to speak for them, and obviously I cannot speak for you, I did not know a single person in Vietnam who did any of the things you described.

With that in mind, let’s talk about what you described, beginning with your testimony before Congress on April 22, 1971, two years after you returned from Vietnam. You said many interesting things including the following:

[S]everal months ago in Detroit [referring to what you later describe as the “Winter Soldier Investigation”], we had an investigation at which over 150 honorably discharged and many very highly decorated veterans testified to war crimes committed in Southeast Asia, not isolated incidents but crimes committed on a day-to-day basis with the full awareness of officers at all levels of command.

They . . . had personally raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in [a] fashion reminiscent of Genghis Khan, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks, and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam . . . . [2]

These are very serious allegations. I assume you did not make them lightly. So here are a few straightforward questions to which all Americans (but most particularly all living Vietnam veterans) deserve your thoughtful response:

1. Did you or any of the men who served under your command commit any of the “war crimes” you described in your testimony? (page 180) If so, what did you do when you were there to stop these crimes from occurring?

2. You testified that the men who participated with you in the “Winter Soldier Investigation” in Detroit “relived the absolute horror of what this country . . . made them do.” (page 180) Having described these actions in great detail, did you come away feeling a certain sympathy with, say, Nazi storm troopers or concentration camp guards, who also claimed that they were doing only what their country made them do?

3. Would you agree that there were American servicemen who, unlike you and your “Winter Soldier” colleagues, found the strength to refuse to engage in the sorts of atrocities you described? And would you agree that these men (in vastly greater numbers than those who appeared with you in Detroit) displayed more courage and character than did you?

4. Do you believe any former United States military officer who so much as tolerated the sort of behavior you described in your testimony should be elected President of the United States?

5. Despite the blatant and outrageous violations of the Geneva Conventions by the Viet Cong and the NVA, you testified that America was “more guilty than any other body of violations of those Geneva Conventions.” (page 185) Were you serious when you said that?

Putting aside your testimony about how you and your “Winter Soldier” friends behaved during your tours of duty, of equal interest were your general observations about America and its institutions. For example, you offered the following observation (which reportedly elicited laughter from the “Winter Soldiers” who filled the chamber during your testimony):

The Communists are not about to take over our McDonald hamburger stands. . . I think that politically, historically, the one thing that people try to do, [is] . . . to satisfy their felt needs, and you can satisfy those needs with almost any kind of political structure, giving it one name or the other. In this name [sic] it is democratic; in others it is communism; in others it is benevolent dictatorship. As long as those needs are satisfied, that structure will exist. (p. 195)

6. Is this still your world view? If so, should not most Americans be rightly concerned over the prospect of a Kerry presidency? And do your words, above, perhaps best explain why some Europeans, like the newly-elected Socialist Party leader of Spain, Mr. Zapatero (who clearly wants to see America fail in her effort to bring democracy to Iraq), wish for a Kerry victory in November 2004?

7. What effect do you suppose your Congressional testimony had on the subsequent North Vietnamese treatment of our POW’s? Do you believe your virulent anti-American comments provided “aid and comfort” to those like NVA General Vo Nguyen Giap who were continuing to try to maim and kill U.S. servicemen still engaged in the fighting?

8. Did you in 1971 (and do you today) share the view expressed by Senator George McGovern who, in 1995, reportedly stated to another highly decorated Vietnam veteran, “What you don’t understand is that I didn’t want us to win [the Vietnam] war”? [3] Surely you can answer that.

Stated simply: Do not send American troops anywhere unless you (a) are certain the cause is morally justified, (b) mean to win, and (c) intend to use every military tactic and weapon system reasonably necessary to protect our servicemen while they are in harm’s way.

Hypothetically, had that been the argument of a well-educated, brave and highly decorated young naval officer in 1971, and had Congress listened, how many millions of Vietnamese, Laotian and Cambodian men, women and children might have been saved from horrifying deaths which occurred after your speech?

How many fewer American POW’s might have been subjected to continued torture and death? How many sons and daughters, American and Vietnamese, would have their fathers and mothers safely home with them today and be living (particularly in the case of South Vietnam) in a much freer world? [4] How many fewer names might today appear on the Wall?

I went to Vietnam because, like most of us, I believed that our country was intent on defending the freedom of an ally against the documented tyranny of a brutal foe. If you did not share that belief, for what possible reason did you volunteer to return?

More fundamentally, mine was not a conclusion which required a corollary that the Americans who served in Vietnam were, on balance, no better than barbarians. The vast, vast majority of American servicemen didn’t rape, pillage or plunder. They didn’t cut off ears, heads or limbs of enemy combatants. They knew (as you, too, should have known) that such activities were not only wrong but were flatly proscribed and rightly punishable.

For what it’s worth, there wasn’t a day during my entire tour when I didn’t try to leave Vietnam a better, more secure place because of our presence. At the same time, there wasn’t a day when I didn’t hope that any VC who wished me dead would be killed by the swift boat crews, or by the Seawolves, STABs or SEALs, before he had the chance to act on that wish.

I would feel the same were I serving in Iraq today. The difference is this. There is a moral clarity surrounding our mission in Iraq---notwithstanding the difficulties our servicemen and women continue to face---which our nation’s leaders failed to muster when we were serving in Vietnam. It is a clarity which seems to elude you. You seem frozen, as if it were still 1971. You seem incapable of distinguishing the success of America and her allies in removing a brutal dictator in Iraq from our failure to accomplish a similar goal in Vietnam. Or maybe it’s simply the case that, as with Vietnam, you are desiring a similar outcome in Iraq purely for “personal political gain.”

[Note: Mr. Purdy is a 1968 graduate of the United States Naval Academy who served in Vietnam from December 1969 until December 1970. He was assigned as one of the support personnel with NSA Det An Thoi, the main base for the swift boat group in which John Kerry served in the early part of 1969.]

[1] Thomas Sowell, “Random Thoughts,” www.townhallcom/columnist/thomassowell/printts20040225.shtml (Feb. 25, 2004).

[2] All quotes are taken from the official transcript entitled “Legislative Proposals Relating to the War in Southeast Asia,” dated Thursday, April 22, 1971 (pages 179-210) before The United States Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, Senator J.W. Fulbright (Chairman) presiding.

[3] James Webb, “PEACE? DEFEAT? What Did the Vietnam War Protesters Want?” American Enterprise Institute (May/June 1997)(emphasis added), describing a conversation with Sen. McGovern during a break in taping a 1995 edition of CNN’s Crossfire.

[4] It is quite interesting to re-read your descriptions of the promises made to you by the Viet Cong and North Vietnamese representatives while you socialized with them in Paris concerning (a) the “release” of our POW’s and (b) the importance of allowing the South Vietnamese people to determine their own future. (page 186) Is it your view that the North Vietnamese lived up to their promises?

Have you forgotten the scenes of the NVA tanks rolling into the south in 1975? Was that what you had in mind when you emphasized the importance of allowing the South Vietnamese people “to determine their own future”?

Or was staring down the barrel of an NVA tank or AK-47, or being publicly executed by the thousands, or being incarcerated by the hundreds of thousands in political “re-education” camps, or facing the possibility of drowning in the South China Sea in a desperate attempt to escape the North’s tyranny, your definition of “self determination” for the South Vietnamese?

Name:	Pete
To:	forum

Message:
All anyone has to do is look at Kerry's voting record, and the truth will out. I think that most military folks are probably savvy enough to realize that he is lying through his teeth. I just hope that the rest of the voters are.

What I don't understand, and perhaps never will, is how someone who served only four months in country, on swift boats, and put himself in for three Purple Hearts while never missing a day of duty due to his injuries, and used those Purple Hearts to get an early rotation out of Vietnam, and used a hole to get an early out from the military, can use that "service" to claim some kind of moral high ground -- particularly after the things he said about Vietnam service in the '70s! And that's probably the longest sentence I've written since college!

I was particularly disturbed by the image used in one of his spots of him coming out of the jungle in combat rig - he was a swift boat skipper, for heaven's sake! And the liberals want to make a big deal of GWB wearing a flight suit for a ride in an airplane? News reporters wear flight suits for a ride in an airplane. It's required. And not to put too fine a point on it, GWB was actually a qualified military pilot. Kerry was NEVER a cricket-cruncher, no matter what kind of masturbation fantasies he's currently engaging in!

I can see it now - The United States Military Personnel's UNION. "Hey - get the eff away from that gun - you can't fire that howitzer, that's MY job and I'M ON BREAK!"

Name:	American
To:	forum

In response to:
. Kerry, have you ever considered what both America and Vietnam might look like today had men like you and Senator McGovern chosen a different path? Without asking you to abandon a principled opposition to the war, what if you had decided not to falsely slander the actions of the vast majority of American servicemen who honorably served in Vietnam

Message:
It's an endemic problem with the Democratic Party. Since Vietnam they've embraced pacifism, one-worldism, and anything to avoid even thinking about using force, or chancing bloodshed.

Many of the problems of the Clinton administration occurred because he was stuck with a party that really didn't want him to get the USA involved. Thanks to pressure from his core supporters they screwed it up whenever they did, as in Somalia, by excessive dependence on the UN or NATO, or half-assed partial measures. And they treated the FBI and CIA with the same distain. In short, for the democratic core, the military, the CIA, and FBI were the enemy, not some arab religious fanatics.

1. Yes, I shot an unarmed, wounded, fifteen year old boy in front of his mother.

Name:

Marta

In response to:
If so, should not most Americans be rightly concerned over the prospect of a Kerry presidency?

Message:
Criticizing Bush on intelligence failures when Kerry has spent most of his life acting as if the CIA was a main component of evil in the world?

Would that only one person ask Kerry if his "new" view on military readiness with "high tech" weapons was a repudiation of his past record of opposing the very weapons that today make us the strongest military in the world.

Name:	Zula Tango Foxtrot
To:	Read

Message:
Benedict Arnold was a war hero, wounded in battle---before he turned against his country. Hitler was likewise a decorated and wounded veteran of the First World War. Being a war hero is not a lifetime . . . exempt[ion] . . . from responsibility for what you do thereafter. -- Thomas Sowell. [1]

4. Do you believe any former United States military officer who so much as tolerated the sort of behavior you described in your testimony should be elected President of the United States?

Mr. Kerry, have you ever considered what both America and Vietnam might look like today had men like you and Senator McGovern chosen a different path? Without asking you to abandon a principled opposition to the war, what if you had decided not to falsely slander the actions of the vast majority of American servicemen who honorably served in Vietnam but instead had returned and testified in favor of a policy akin to the modern-day Powell Doctrine? Stated simply: Do not send American troops anywhere unless you (a) are certain the cause is morally justified, (b) mean to win, and (c) intend to use every military tactic and weapon system reasonably necessary to protect our servicemen while they are in harm’s way. Hypothetically, had that been the argument of a well-educated, brave and highly decorated young naval officer in 1971, and had Congress listened, how many millions of Vietnamese, Laotian and Cambodian men, women and children might have been saved from horrifying deaths which occurred after your speech? How many fewer American POW’s might have been subjected to continued torture and death? How many sons and daughters, American and Vietnamese, would have their fathers and mothers safely home with them today and be living (particularly in the case of South Vietnam) in a much freer world? [4] How many fewer names might today appear on the Wall?

I don’t blame you for criticizing the manner in which U.S. policy in Vietnam was pursued. It was insane. I, like you, returned from Vietnam believing that the war was a mistake. It was a mistake, not because of what America originally set out to accomplish, but because our leaders (Kennedy, Johnson, and Nixon, and those who surrounded them) never mustered the political will to give those who honorably served there the means (nor, eventually any reason) to win. Clearly our leaders lacked belief in the moral certainty of the cause. But I did not; at least not initially. I went to Vietnam because, like most of us, I believed that our country was intent on defending the freedom of an ally against the documented tyranny of a brutal foe. If you did not share that belief, for what possible reason did you volunteer to return?

After realizing that our government had no real intention of winning the war, I, too, returned with the view that no American should have been sent to die in Vietnam under those circumstances. But that conclusion was not weighted down with the vicious anti-American, anti-military, anti-war, pro-Viet Cong, pro-Ho Chi Minh, pro-Communist rhetoric which you not only adopted, but worked tirelessly to promote. More fundamentally, mine was not a conclusion which required a corollary that the Americans who served in Vietnam were, on balance, no better than barbarians. The vast, vast majority of American servicemen didn’t rape, pillage or plunder. They didn’t cut off ears, heads or limbs of enemy combatants. They knew (as you, too, should have known) that such activities were not only wrong but were flatly proscribed and rightly punishable.

Name:	Smartguy
To:	Anyone
Re:	John Kerry and Hillary Clinton

Message:
John Kerry would make a terrible president. Hillary is even worse!

Name:	FBI Buy
To:	forum
Re:	14 FBI files join the over 900 that disappeared

In response to:
Crude paper files not converted to micrifiche stolen for gain. Add this to the hundreds of missing laptops, pistols,etc and the fact that lady FBI are poor shots and the FBI is hurting for reputation.

Message:
Now that two fitional but effective FBI non lawyers are gone the F*****G Bunch of Idiots wishes they still had a chief like J Edgar Hoover. People talked about him not really writing None Dare Call it Treason and sure enough Nobody does these days. Hoover was profetic or was it too easy to forsee? You can even get a ticket from the enemy despot, visit him, and speak highly of Saddam ever since even after he's accused of heinous war crimes. Hell nobody's perfect. But shouldn't Saddam be dead?!?! All that guilt and no suicide, who is he really, Blythe? Ironic that a FRENCHMAN will be raking in all that loot for defending a French foreign hero like Saddam Hussein.

Name:	Pot Head Calls Kettle Black
To:	forum
Re:	Who do you believe?

In response to:
Gary Aldrich, the former White House FBI agent who fabricated salacious stories about Bill and Hillary Clinton, who now suspects that Kerry was "pro-Communistic" and is demanding to see his old FBI files.

Message:
Would you believe someone who told whoppers thinking nobody would check or someone who has been checked many times and found to be telling the truth? Aldrich knew that his book would be ignored, doubted, and called cover-to-cover fiction but he had the guts to write it anyway. Aldrich was and is fully cognisent that people who cross the Clintons get various "treatments". Would you want a president who deplores being watched in the halls of the White House and insists vehemently that nobody is to be in that hallway, there is no greeting, and secret service agents follow from ***expletive**** way back about 30 feet"? How are they to do their job properly? I'd take the word of an old school FBI ant day over a two-bit politician who is a lawyer.

Name:	Bacon Switch
To:	Buffalo Family Hour
Re:	Recycling For A Better Tomorrow

In response to:
All that guilt and no suicide, who is he really, Blythe? Ironic that a FRENCHMAN will be raking in all that loot for defending a French foreign hero like Saddam Hussein. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message:
Put the frog right into the hopper with Hussein and throw in the clutch. As soon as the hammers are up to speed, (watch the manifold vacuum gauge) open the feed up wide, and enjoy the satisfying double WHUMPHH!!! as the two of them encounter the whirling hammers and are instantly converted to protein and mineral rich meat and bone meal. Sack it up and put it in front of the hogs!

Name:

SUV

In response to:
John Kerry would make a terrible president. Hillary is even worse!

Name:	Simple Truth
To:	Idiot Liar
Re:	Why Bush will be re-elected...................................

In response to:
"....'s can't win without ing G mned lies..."

Message:
John Kerry seeks to distract Americans from his own failed ideas for protecting America from future attacks. John Kerry's backward-looking approach would return us to the failed policies of treating terror as a law-enforcement matter.

Name:

History

In response to:
REMEMBER: Democrats pardon Terrorists. Republicans kill terrorists.

Message:
Harry S. Truman atomic bombed the crazy Japs during WWII end it. So that is dumb statement since Harry Truman was a Democrat.

Name:	Ironic History
To:	History

In response to:
".....Harry S. Truman atomic bombed the crazy Japs during WWII end it. So that is dumb statement since Harry Truman was a Democrat......"

Name:

HIstory

Message:
Tenant the FBI and the CIA need an overhaul and the guy who wins in 2004 will have to do it to keep America safe.

Name:

Very Ironic History

In response to:
Harry S. Truman atomic bombed the crazy Japs during WWII to end it. So that is the answer to a dumber statement posted by some bozo

Message:
Tokoyo in August 1945 was not a good target since it had already fire bombed into the last century. FDR a Democrat ordered 10,000 planes in which to destroy the Germans capabilities to make munitions and had ever factory in Germany flatenned. In 22 conflicts the Democrats pushed ahead and won while in every conflict the French Fried.

Name:	Karl & Nic
To:	HIstory
Re:	Force everyone into the Unions. Cool!

In response to:
Tupac the FBI and the CIA need an overhaul and the gig who frogs in 2004 will have to do it to big fat girls and do it fail safe before congressional authorities.

Where is the world's indignation and the big shots in Europe and at the UN while Kosovo and Albanian Muslims go on a rampage murdering, burning and killing Serbian villagers? Where are they while the Muslims burn churches across Kosovo

Name:	Quintana Roux
To:	Florid Feverdream
Re:	Tense moments

In response to:
Head them off at the pass!

Message:
Oykiyo in August 1945 was declared a gooey target since it was lop-sided with fire bottomed fat girls from the last century. FDR a marmoset ordered 10,000,000 planes in which to destroy the fat girls hotbottom capabilities to make mushy smushy and had ever factory in Germany flattened into Volkswagens cunningly packed with fat girls. In 22 conflicts the beetles flourished and won the final four while in every conflict the French fried hippopotami, all the while dreaming of fat girls.

Name:	History
To:	Quintana Roux

Message:
What are you on? Your mind is gone. Or do you live in an insane asylum.

Name:

Harry S. Truman

Message:
HST was the only Dem with balls. He had no problems with nuking the Japs into oblivion; it was the right thing to do, saved millions of Marine and GI casualities. We should consider doing the same thing to Muslims.

Name:	Quintana Roux
To:	Histrioxyphene Dimethyl Citrate
Re:	Shiprock to Kalamazoo in a beautiful pea-green boat.

In response to:
What are you on? Your mind is gone. Or do you live in an insane asylum.

Message:
What have you bombed? Your mime is gone. Or do you drive an insane asylum. Has anyone here a horse? Hear you not my lusty bellow? I am your leige, and I demand a horse! A horse of most any sort! My fat girls for a horse, my harem entire, for I would ride yon yellow brick road!

Name:	Festus
To:	The Marshall
Re:	Thousands of 'em! Could all stampede in a second or two...

In response to:
HST was the only Dem with balls

Message:
Damnation, Mr. Dillon, I never seed so many fat girls in one place. There must be near to a thousand of 'em! Shall I close the watertight doors?

Name:

Citizen of the World

In response to:
In response to: Democrats speak with forked tongue! Message: Republicans are just plain crooks

Name:	The Marshall
To:	Festus
Re:	Smaller Classrooms With Teentsy Children

In response to:
The watertight doors?

Message:
Too late for that, Festus. There's just too many of them, and they've already caught our scent! We'll have to ride like hell for the box canyon and dig in there. We'll drink rotgut hooch and play the jukebox loud and fire blindly at nothing in particular while yelling "Cover me!!" with lots of elottal push at no one in particular until the rivers thaw out and the damned Indians come out of hibernation. The Indians will rout the fat girls, and by God, we'll civilize this territory yet!

Name:	Milan
Re:	When will they ban Miss gy from UK television?

Message:
The Boar War ; Muslims angry at plan to bring back historic statue of wild

FOR more than 100 years it stood proudly as the centrepiece of England's oldest public park before being decapitated during a Second World War air raid.

Now a row has broken out after plans to replace Derby's historic Florentine Boar statue were abandoned for fear of offending Muslims, whose religion considers s to be 'unclean'.

A replica of the statue, a crouching wild boar, was intended as the jewel in the crown of a Pounds 5 million National Lottery- funded restoration of the city's Arboretum Park.

But councillors have called for the proposal to be scrapped amid sinister warnings that the statue would be vandalised or stolen.

The Florentine Boar statue stood from 1840 until 1942 when it was beheaded by a German bomb. But it was last week branded 'offensive' during a meeting of Derby Council's minority ethnic communities advisory committee.

Councillor Suman Gupta, a Labour representative for Derby's Derwent ward, told the meeting: 'If the statue is put back in the Arboretum, I have been told it will not be there the next day, or at least it won't be in the same condition.

'We should not have the boar because it is offensive to some of the groups in the area.' The park is in an area known for its large Pakistani community.

Shokat Lal, a community leader, said at the meeting: 'In Normanton the majority of residents are Pakistani Muslims.

'I'm not saying we have to lose the boar, but we could put the boar in the city centre so it does not cause offence to people.' Local historian Christopher Harris told The Mail on Sunday: 'We are living in a multicultural society and I hope that would include English culture.

'If the boar had never been destroyed in 1941, these people would have grown up with it and would not have noticed it.

'Activists have jumped on the chance to make a statement. It is one that damns English culture-But the wild boar is part of Derby's culture.' He said a small minority of Muslims with extreme political views had issued veiled threats to the council over the statue.

The land for the park was donated to the council in September 1840 by Joseph Strutt, the first mayor of the Borough of Derby, a wealthy cotton mill owner who wanted to give the public a place to exercise.

He commissioned architect J.C. Loudon to landscape the area. The hollow ceramic boar was donated by Mr Strutt. Sculpted on commission by W. J. Coffee - and based on drawings of a similar statue in the Market Nuovo in Florence - it was intended as a gift to the working classes of Derby.

Last week's committee meeting proposed that a statue of Mr Loudon should be erected at the Arboretum with a new site for the boar in the city centre.

Tory leader Philip Hickson said: 'The community is strong enough to stand a statue of a boar in a park. But we live in an age where sometimes things are a little more politically correct than they ought to be.'

Name:

Milan

In response to:
The Boar War ; Muslims angry at plan to bring back historic statue of wild p.i.g. (cochino)

Name:	Jay
Re:	Russell Means

In response to:
“I see how the social programs are devastating the people around here,” he said. “The Democrats are hurting us.”

Message:
Let's make a deal. The right admits that the war on drugs is a failure if the left admits that their beloved social programs are a failure. Are you listening Ted Kennedy? Are you listening Individual?

Name:

Yeah that's cool

In response to:
Let's make a deal. The right admits that the war on drugs is a failure if the left admits that their beloved social programs are a failure. Are you listening Ted Kennedy? Are you listening Individual?

Message:
As long as everybody admits that the NEA is a corrupt organization that should be investigated under the RICO statutes...

Name:	Make Him EU President
Re:	Family

Message:
Kerry's paternal grandfather, Frederick A. Kerry (born Fritz Kohn), was born in Horni Benesov in what is now the Czech Republic, and grew up in Mödling (a small town near Vienna, Austria). They immigrated to the U.S. arriving at Ellis Island with his wife Ida née Loewe (who was born in Budapest, Hungary) and son Erich on May 18, 1905. The Kerry-Kohns were Jewish, but the family concealed its upon migrating to the United States, and raised the Kerry children as Catholics. Two of Ida's siblings, Otto Loewe and Jenni Loewe, died in the Nazi concentration camps (Theresienstadt and Treblinka, respectively), after being deported from Vienna in 1942, about a year before John Kerry's birth. Frederick committed suicide on November 23, 1921 by gunshot to the head at the Copley Plaza Hotel in Boston, Massachusetts. His second son, Richard was only six at the time.

Richard Kerry, John's father, attended the Phillips Academy as a youth, and then graduated from Yale University in 1937. He received a degree from Harvard Law School in 1940, and then joined the United States Army Air Corps. In his adult career, he worked for the United States Foreign Service and for the United States Department of State, Bureau of United Nations Affairs, serving as an attorney. It was in 1937 while visiting the French coastal town of Saint-Brieuc that he met Rosemary Forbes, a Forbes family heiress born in Paris, France. Rosemary grew up mostly in France, where the Forbes family still has a home on a bluff in Brittany. They married in January, 1941.

John Kerry's maternal grandfather, James Grant Forbes, was born in Shanghai, China, where the Forbes family of Boston accumulated a fortune in the opium and China trade, and became an international businessman and attorney living in France.

Name:	Question
To:	Joe

In response to:
What is the difference between the right wing slur machine and the left wing slur machine?

Message:
Answer: the right wing slur machine points out contradictions in voting records, contradictions in testimony and brings them to light. The left wing slur machine focus is on someones appearance. See Kate Harris, Paula Jones.

Name:	Back at You
To:	Biased-Naive Right-Winger

In response to:
Answer: the right wing slur machine points out contradictions in voting records, contradictions in testimony and brings them to light. The left wing slur machine focus is on someones appearance. See Kate Harris, Paula Jones.

Message:
HA, HA, HA, HA, -- "There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see."

Hundreds of ugly, vicious, cruel pictures, sick drawings and reworked photos of Hillary Clinton have there been dumped on this forum. Where have you been?

Just go to the Free Republic website www--com and it's full of these sick pictures.

Anyone who is so biased and naive as yourself does not belong on this board. There are lots of right-wing boards for biased people like you.

Name:

Citizen of the World

In response to:
HA, HA, HA, HA, -- "There are none so blind as those who do not wish to see." Hundreds of ugly, vicious, cruel pictures, sick drawings and reworked photos of Hillary Clinton have there been dumped on this forum. Where have you been? Just go to the Free Republic website www--com and it's full of these sick pictures. Anyone who is so biased and naive as yourself does not belong on this board. There are lots of right-wing boards for biased people like you.

Message:
Doesn't change the fact that John Kerry is a self-confessed war criminal...

Name:	Milan
To:	political correctness thought police

Message:
Muslims hit back following attack by Carey

British Muslims reacted with anger yesterday at an attack on Islamic culture delivered by Lord Carey, the former Archbishop of Canterbury.

Muslim leaders said his claim that moderates had failed to condemn suicide bombers was totally unjustified, and rejected his assertion that Islam, over the past 500 years, had displayed a "strong resistance to modernity".

In a public lecture in Rome on Thursday evening, Dr Carey had also criticised the "glaring absence" of democracy in Muslim countries and said Islamic culture had contributed "no great invention... for many hundred years".

Manzoor Moghal, chairman of the Federation of Muslim Organisations in Leicester, said Dr Carey's statement was "disastrous" for relations between Christians and Muslims.

"He has fallen prey to the campaign tactics of racists in this country," he said.

As to the suggestion that Muslim leaders were not doing enough to criticise terrorists, Mr Moghal said it was "nonsense".

"We condemn suicide bombers, we go on radio, on television, we have made statements. What more can we do?

"We cannot be responsible for the criminal actions of others - they are not under our control. The former archbishop has got it wrong."

Iqbal Sacranie, secretary general of the Muslim Council of Britain, was swift to dismiss the former archbishop's words, denouncing them as "myopic". He said: "Frankly, one is dismayed by Lord Carey's comments.

"One is surprised to find Lord Carey recycling the same old religious prejudice in the 21st century."

Ahmed Versi, editor of Muslim News, said: "We hope that the current Archbishop Rowan Williams - who is very different - will condemn these views."

But Lord Carey defended his speech yesterday on BBC Radio 4's The World At One programme.

"It is meant to provoke a reaction. In the same way I look at the West and Christianity and am equally critical," he said.

"I'm looking at the way we build stereotypes of each other and the way we must transcend this and I think that a person looking objectively at the entire speech - five and a half thousand words - will see there's a balance there...

"So to twist it as an attack on the Islamic world would be far too simplistic and sadly it does suggest how polarised the world is at the present moment.

"The positive is that I believe we can do more together. Two great faiths, Christianity and Islam, working together against extremists on both sides. That, in fact, was the thrust of my message."

Dr Carey's remarks came just before his successor as Archbishop of Canterbury, Rowan Williams, leads talks between Christian and Muslim scholars in New York, which start on Monday.

Dr Carey received encouragement from the leader of an organisation which supports Christian missionaries working in Islamic countries.

Dr Patrick Sookhdeo, director of the Barnabas Fund, said that Dr Carey's lecture had taken "great courage".

"He has spent years establishing dialogue with Islam. Now he recognises that the core of Islam must be radically changed if there is going to be any change in their attitude towards suicide bombing and so on. This is a departure for the Church," he said.

"He is going to get a lot of flak from the Muslim community, who will feel that he has betrayed them, and from the liberal wing of the Church of England who will feel that he has stepped out of line."

Name:	Kofi Annan
To:	Manzoor Moghal
Re:	Let's just get along...

In response to:
"The positive is that I believe we can do more together. Two great faiths, Christianity and Islam, working together against extremists on both sides. That, in fact, was the thrust of my message."

Message:
Let's work together to help fight the global network of Christian terrorists.

Name:	Nuke 'Em
To:	Liberalz
Re:	Radical Islam finds a haven in Europe.

In response to:
http://www.opinionjournal.com/extra/?id=110004879

Name:	CAIR
To:	Kofi
Re:	Let's start here...

In response to:
Let's work together to help fight the global network of Christian terrorists.

Message:
Many of our members in small towns complain that Trinity Broadcasting is the only network station that shows up clearly on their television.

I suggest that PBS air more documentaries favorable to our point of view as a counterbalance to this media rape by Christian extremists.

Name:	Wally Wahhabi
To:	CAIR
Re:	Money talks

In response to:
A U.N. resolution about this could send a strong message...

Message:
Are you kidding? When was the last time George Bush paid attention to a UN resolution?

I suggest you take your suggestion to ARAMCO, so they can take persuade Exxon-Mobile. In the final analysis, the Corporation for Public Broadcasting is not going to snub one of their biggest sponsors.

Name:

Not Joe

In response to:
Hundreds of ugly, vicious, cruel pictures, sick drawings and reworked photos of Hillary Clinton have there been dumped on this forum. Where have you been?

Message:
Joe is talking about the smear of Kerry in the mainstream press. Hillary deserves the ridicule she gets because she is a self important twit. This rinky dink forum can hardly be considered the mainstream press and a few doctored picrures can hardly be considered a right wing smear machine. Joey Conason tries to play the trump victim card when in fact it was Kerry who was smearing the sevicemen.

Name:	Artiste
To:	CAIR
Re:	ACTION ALERT!

In response to:
media rape by Christian extremists

It took my 1 year of hard work to collect enough faeces with the correct consistency to make this masterpiece, only to have it defaced by this ignorant philistine.

Name:

Individual

In response to:
"We condemn suicide bombers, we go on radio, on television, we have made statements. What more can we do?

Message:
What do you say? Do you say clearly and forcefully that all suicide bombers who target civilians will burn in hell? Do you say clearly and forcefully that all suicide bombers who target civilians will receive no rewards whatsoever in heaven? Do you say clearly and forcefully that all the suicide bombers who have targeted civilians are now burning in hell? Do you say clearly and forcefully that all suicide bombers who target civilians will be condemned by the local culture and so will the suicide bombers' family? What do you say?

Name:

Individual

In response to:
The right admits that the war on drugs is a failure if the left admits that their beloved social programs are a failure.

Message:
Affirmative action, Head Start, the war on poverty, federal funding for schools, mediscam, socialist insecurity to name a few.

Name:

In response to:
Affirmative action, Head Start, the war on poverty, federal funding for schools, mediscam, socialist insecurity to name a few.

Name:

Citizen of the World

In response to:
Why George W. Bush is a crook and should be impeached

Message:
Never before has the United States had a President like President Bush who pays back his contributors with non bid contracts. Its disgusting. Should I name just a few of the companies involved?

Name:

Citizen of the World

In response to:
if the left admits that their beloved social programs are a failure.

Message:
Head start was a great idea to help poor families and their children get a good education at an early age. Social Security is not as good as it used to be because Medicare helped older people get medical care and prolong their lives. Folks like your mom and dad and your aunt and uncles. Would you like to pay for your relatives medical costs and save the government from doing so? Most countries all over the world have similar programs so if you don't like it, by all means feel free to move to another country. We will send your social security checks to any address or bank that you give to the Social Security Administration.

Name:

Huh?

In response to:
Now a row has broken out after plans to replace Derby's historic Florentine Boar statue were abandoned for fear of offending Muslims, whose religion considers p!gs to be 'unclean'.

Message:
Well what if I consider Muslims to be "sub-human?" (So far they've done nothing to prove otherwise.)

Name:

Al Gore

Message:
Right after you explain Clinton giving missle technology to the Chinese for campaign contributions.

Name:

Jack

In response to:
Never before has the United States had a President like President Bush who pays back his contributors with non bid contracts. Its disgusting.

Message:
What's digusting are the democrats pandering to trial lawyers and teacher unions.

Name:

In response to:
Would you like to pay for your relatives medical costs and save the government from doing so?

Message:
I'd like to have that choice. But democrats are anti choice. If you want to be a part of the scheme, you should be able to. If I chose not to be a part of the scheme, I should be able to. Is that fair?

Another crude slur

I've yet to see a Republican commercial that attacks Kerry's patriotism -- but lots that use John Kerry's own words and voting record against him.

Name:

Realist

Message:
To those of you who think that sending young volunteers from the West will be enough to win the war against the Muslims... I have news for you. It will not do.
This war has been going on for over 700 years, and is not about to end without a total and humiliating and devastating defeat of this pscychotic enemy. Just as it took 2 nuclear weapons to placate the suicidal, homicidal maniacs known as the Japanese, who provoked America in the last major war, it will take dozens of them to smash Islam and cow the Muslims.

We probably do not have to exterminate the Muslims, it would be prudent to try the nuclear weapons method first. If they resisted, well, tough cookies Muhammed... but you've got to go.

The world was working just great before the psychopathic muslims and their tacit bretheren started attacking Western Civilization. Books were even appearing entitled "The End of History" and such. But alas, the Muslims continued on their mad, murderous rampage and sooner or later it will come down to the big guns. Let's just get it the fuck over with and nuke the filthy pigs.

Name:	O Live Stone
To:	forum
Re:	What did that innocent abused intern say?

Message:
Lewinsky Interview More Popular Than Hillary Clinton's Former White House Intern's Interview Garnered 48.5M Viewers POSTED: 11:47 a.m. EDT June 11, 2003 New York Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton's televised interview with Barbara Walters drew big numbers Sunday night, but it still paled in comparison to a previous interview related to the Bill Clinton presidency. Early Nielsen numbers show an estimated 13.5 million people watched Hillary Clinton's interview with Walters where she talked about her marriage to the former president -- making it the fourth highest-rated prime time show of the week. But, according to Nielsen, that is less than one-third of the audience for Walters' 1999 interview with former White House intern Monica Lewinsky, who had an affair with Bill Clinton. That interview drew 48.5 million viewers. Walters interviewed Hillary Clinton to talk about "Living History," her long-awaited book. According to book publisher Simon and Schuster, the book sold 200,000 copies on its first day of release Monday. The publisher paid $8 million for the former first lady's White House memoirs, and ordered 1 million copies for the book's initial run. Company spokeswoman Victoria Meyer said Tuesday that another 300,000 copies will be produced to meet demand of the book. Copyright 2003 by TheNewOrleansChannel.com. The Associated Press contributed to this report. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Name:	Smedley
To:	SUV

In response to:
In his Sept. 2 speech in South Carolina, Kerry claimed the U.S. is suffering “the greatest job loss since the Great Depression.” That’s Right.

Why don't you do yourself a favor. Instead of pulling b.s. from the democrat-shill websites, try using official government sources.

Name:	Nuke 'Em
To:	Realist

In response to:
The world was working just great before the psychopathic muslims and their tacit bretheren started attacking Western Civilization. Books were even appearing entitled "The End of History" and such. But alas, the Muslims continued on their mad, murderous rampage and sooner or later it will come down to the big guns. Let's just get it the over with and nuke the filthy s.

Message:
Right on. And let's get them the out of this country. The Constitution only protects religions, and Islam ain't a religion...it's a virulent disease.

Name:

khobar

Message:
It's the murder of a white person by a black person that most attracts the death penalty, as opposed to the murder of a black person by anybody at all. Black victims are undervalued by the courts. Black murderers are doomed if the victim was white.

Name:	Willie Horton
To:	khobar

In response to:
It's the murder of a white person by a black person that most attracts the death penalty, as opposed to the murder of a black person by anybody at all. Black victims are undervalued by the courts. Black murderers are doomed if the victim was white.

Name:	Frosted in 'Frisco
To:	Muslim lovers
Re:	Ignore Muslim crimes at your own risk!

In response to:
http://www.kosovo.com/erpkiminfo.htmlERP KIM Info-Service Why is it so quiet about churches and senagugues being burned in France and Germany? Is it feared that the invaluable Muslim populations there to over-run these countries will be offended by announcing their evil deeds in the name of religion?

Message:
The News on the latest Pogrom of March 17-20 KOSOVO. NET INFORMATION PORTAL OF THE ERP KIM INFO-SERVICE KOSOVO BURNING IN ETHNIC VIOLENCE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF REMAINING SERBS CONTINUE Kosovo Kristallnacht 17-18 March - tensions continue - nearly 30 Orthodox churches destroyed - dozens of killed - hundereds of wounded in the outburst of Kosovo Albanian violence which is directed against Orrhodox Serbs and its Holy Sites Cathedral church of St. George in Prizren after it was burned by Albanian mob Ruins of Prizren churches after March Pogrom News on the site of the Serbian Orthodox Patriarchate, Belgrade http://www.spc.org.yu DAILY BULLETINS until March 17 March 2004 DNEVNI BILTENI ERP KIM do 17. Marta 2004 } KOSOVO DAILY NEWS Kosovo Daily News KDN offers a variety of daily articles related to Kosovo. . Radio Yugoslavia - News in English - Regular updates Kosovo and Metohija News Official Site of the Serbian Gov't Kosovo Information Page Intl. Organizations in Kosovo B92 News in English Holy Archangels monastery after the March pogrom KOSOVO DAILY NEWS LIST (KDN) KDN Archive - more than 70.000 articles since 1998 Other sources with news in English: News B92, Belgrade - http://www.b92.net/english/news/ Radio Serbia-Montenegro (special page on terrorism in Kosovo and Metohija) http://www.radioyu.org/ chose English language -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- NEWS FROM KOSOVO AND METOHIJA ERPKIM Info-Service Mailing ERPKIM Info-Service News from Kosovo & Metohija ERP KIM Info-Service is the official Information Service of the Serbian Orthodox Diocese of Raska and Prizren and works with the blessing of His Grace Bishop Artemije. Our Information Service is distributing news on Kosovo related issues. The main focus of the Info-Service is the life of the Serbian Orthodox Church and the Serbian community in the Province of Kosovo and Metohija. If you would like to regularly receive our ERP KIM Newsletters please subscribe to our newslist(s) http://www.kosovo.com/erpkiminfo.htmlERP KIM Info-Service LINK

Name:

Doug French

Message:
GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip - U.S. President George W. Bush is the enemy of God and Islam, the new Hamas chief in Gaza said Sunday, declaring that God's war against the United States and Israel was ongoing.

In a speech at Gaza's Islamic University, Hamas leader Abdel Aziz Rantisi said he was not surprised that the United States vetoed a U.N. Security Council resolution condemning Israel's assassination last Monday of Hamas spiritual leader Sheik Ahmed Yassin.

"We knew that Bush is the enemy of God, the enemy of Islam and Muslims. America declared war against God. Sharon declared war against God and God declared war against America, Bush and Sharon," Rantisi said. "The holy man (Sheik Yassin), he said the war of God continues against them and I can see the victory coming up from the land of Palestine by the hand of Hamas."

Immediately after the Israeli missile strike that killed Yassin, Rantisi and other Hamas leaders threatened to retaliate against the United States, Israel's staunchest ally. However, a few days later, Rantisi backed down from the threat, saying Hamas would only be active in the West Bank, Gaza Strip and Israel.

Name:	American
To:	Forum
Re:	Kerry is a Dope

In response to:
Kerry and other Democrats are trying to politicize the work of the commission. John Kerry seeks to distract Americans from his own failed ideas for protecting America from future attacks.

Kerry rips ‘character assassination’ of Clarke

KANSAS CITY, Mo. - John Kerry said the White House is committing character assassination with its treatment of former counterterror chief Richard Clarke to avoid responding to questions about national security that Clarke raised.

I don’t think people want questions about character; I think they want questions about our security to be answered,” Kerry said Saturday. “That’s what this is about.” Kerry also said Condoleezza Rice, President Bush’s national security adviser, should testify in public before the commission investigating the Sept. 11, 2001, terror attacks.

“If Condoleezza Rice can find time to do ‘60 Minutes’ on television before the American people, she ought to find 60 minutes to speak to the commission under oath,” Kerry told reporters. “We’re talking about the security of our country.”

Name:

Citizen of the World

In response to:
What's digusting are the democrats pandering to trial lawyers and teacher unions.

Message:
With lousy doctors and careless hospitols and HMO's we need good trial lawyers to protect us.

Name:	American
To:	Forum
Re:	Sounds Like B.S.

Message:
DETROIT - Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry proposed Friday

Hillary_Clinton_Forum_1125

In his Sept. 2 speech in South Carolina, Kerry claimed the U.S. is suffering “the greatest job loss since the Great Depression.” That’s Right. Source:www.DemocraticSource.org

To Morris, finally somebody is saying something intelligent on this forum rather than throwing insults at the other person's personals beliefs.

Where is the world's indignation and the big shots in Europe and at the UN while Kosovo and Albanian Muslims go on a rampage murdering, burning and killing Serbian villagers? Where are they while the Muslims burn churches across Kosovo

Another crude slur

I've yet to see a Republican commercial that attacks Kerry's patriotism -- but lots that use John Kerry's own words and voting record against him.

Kerry rips ‘character assassination’ of Clarke