A Plea for Enlightened Moderation. Muslims must raise themselves up through individual achievement and socioeconomic emancipation.

A Plea for Enlightened Moderation
Muslims must raise themselves up through individual achievement and socioeconomic emancipation.

By Pervez Musharraf
Tuesday, June 1, 2004; Page A23

The world has been going through a tumultuous period since the dawn of the 1990s, with no sign of relief in sight. The suffering of the innocents, particularly my brethren in faith -- the Muslims -- at the hands of militants, extremists and terrorists has made it all the more urgent to bring order to this troubled scene. In this spirit, I would like to set forth a strategy I call Enlightened Moderation.

The world has become an extremely dangerous place. The devastating power of plastic explosives, combined with high-tech remote-controlled devices, as well as a proliferation of suicide bombers, has created a lethal force that is all but impossible to counter. The unfortunate reality is that both the perpetrators of these crimes and most of the people who suffer from them are Muslims. This has caused many non-Muslims to believe wrongly that Islam is a religion of intolerance, militancy and terrorism. It has led increasing numbers of people to link Islam to fundamentalism; fundamentalism to extremism, and extremism to terrorism. Muslims can protest however vigorously they like against this kind of labeling, but the reality is that such arguments are not likely to prevail in the battle for minds. To make things even more difficult, Muslims are probably the poorest, most uneducated, most powerless and most disunited people in the world.

The stark challenge that faces anyone with compassion for the common heritage of mankind is determining what legacy we will leave for future generations. The special challenge that confronts Muslims is to drag ourselves out of the pit we find ourselves in, to raise ourselves up by individual achievement and collective socioeconomic emancipation. Something has to be done quickly to stop the carnage in the world and to stem the downward slide of Muslims.

My idea for untangling this knot is Enlightened Moderation, which I think is a win for all -- for both the Muslim and non-Muslim worlds. It is a two-pronged strategy. The first part is for the Muslim world to shun militancy and extremism and adopt the path of socioeconomic uplift. The second is for the West, and the United States in particular, to seek to resolve all political disputes with justice and to aid in the socioeconomic betterment of the deprived Muslim world.

We need to understand that the root cause of extremism and militancy lies in political injustice, denial and deprivation. Political injustice to a nation or a people, when combined with stark poverty and illiteracy, makes for an explosive mix. It produces an acute sense of hopelessness and powerlessness. A nation suffering from these lethal ills is easily available for the propagation of militancy and the perpetration of extremist, terrorist acts. It is cannon fodder in a war of terrorism.

I would be remiss if, in defense of the people of my faith, I did not trace the genesis of the Muslims' being labeled as extremists or terrorists. Before the anti-Soviet Afghan war, the sole cause of unrest and concern in the Muslim world was the Palestine dispute. It was this issue that led to a unity of Muslims -- in favor of Palestinians and against Israel. The Afghan war of the 1980s, supported and facilitated by the West as a proxy war against the Soviet Union, saw the emergence and nurturing of pan-Islamic militancy. Islam as a religion was used to harness worldwide Muslim support. Subsequently the atrocities and ethnic cleansing against Muslims in Bosnia, the Chechen uprising, the Kashmir freedom struggle and the invigorated Palestinian intifada all erupted in the '90s after the Soviet disintegration. To make matters worse, the militancy that was sparked in Afghanistan -- which should have been defused after the Cold War -- was instead allowed to fester for a decade.

During this time, hostility among fighters from the Muslim world turned multidirectional, seeking new conflict zones in places where Muslims were suffering. Enter the birth of al Qaeda. Meanwhile, the Palestinian intifada kept gathering momentum, uniting and angering Muslims across the globe. And then came the bombshell of Sept. 11, 2001, and the angry reaction of the United States against the Taliban and al Qaeda in Afghanistan. All subsequent reactions of the United States -- its domestic responses against Muslims, its attitude toward Palestine and the operation in Iraq -- led to total polarization of the Muslim masses against the United States. It is not Islam as a religion that has created militancy and extremism but rather political disputes that have led to antagonism among the Muslim masses.

This is all history now. What has been done cannot be undone. But this situation cannot be allowed to fester; a remedy must be found. I call on the West to help resolve these political disputes with justice, as part of a commitment to a strategy of Enlightened Moderation.

When I think of the role of Muslims in today's world, my heart weeps. What we need is introspection. Who are we, what do we as Muslims stand for, where are we going, where should we be headed and how can we reach it? The answers to these questions are the Muslim part of Enlightened Moderation.

We have a glorious past. Islam exploded on the world scene as the flag bearer of a just, lawful, tolerant and value-oriented society. We had faith in human exaltation through knowledge and enlightenment. We exemplified tolerance within ourselves and toward people of other faiths. The armies of Islam did not march forward to convert people by the sword, despite what the perceptions may be, but to deliver them from the darkness through the visible example of their virtues. What better projection can be found of these deeper values of Islam than the personal example of our Holy Prophet (P.B.U.H.), who personified justice, compassion, tolerance of others, generosity of spirit, austerity with a spirit of sacrifice, and a burning desire to make a better world.

Today's Muslim world is distant from all these values. We have been left far behind in social, moral and economic development. We have remained in our own shell and refused to learn or acquire from others. We have reached the depths of despair and despondency. We need to face stark reality. Is the way ahead one of confrontation and militancy? Could this path really lead us back to our past glory while also showing the light of progress and development to the world?

I say to my brother Muslims: The time for renaissance has come. The way forward is through enlightenment. We must concentrate on human resource development through the alleviation of poverty and through education, health care and social justice. If this is our direction, it cannot be achieved through confrontation. We must adopt a path of moderation and a conciliatory approach to fight the common belief that Islam is a religion of militancy in conflict with modernization, democracy and secularism. All this must be done with a realization that, in the world we live in, fairness does not always rule.

The Organization of Islamic Conferences (OIC) is our collective body. We need to infuse new life into it; it is now in a state of near impotence. The OIC must be restructured to meet the challenges of the 21st century, to fulfill the aspirations of the Muslim world and to take us toward emancipation. Forming a committee of luminaries to recommend a restructuring of the OIC is a big step in the right direction. We have to show resolve and rise above self-interest for our common good -- in the very spirit that Islam teaches us.

The world at large and the powers that be must realize that confrontation and force will never bring peace. Justice must be done and be seen to be done. Let it not be said by future generations that we, the leaders of today, took humanity toward the apocalypse.

Gen. Musharraf is president of Pakistan. source...

Two articles that appeared on Forum 1171 today have once again confirmed my Predictions:

One article describes a new book being written by UN Peacekeepers, as they tell the story of parties where dope useage was rampant, -- but importantly, they also describe the Balkan troops sent over to be part of the Peacekeepers, as "criminally insane" as they were recruited out of the prison & mental wards.

Some may remember my article where I said that we recruited retarded people from all over the world to serve in Iraq & other hostile zones, & then quoted Rumsfeld as explaining, "Well, we TRIED using US "Intelligence" to find the Enemy, & now we must go to Plan B."

Another new article says huge terrorist hordes are forming in IRAN with the intent to take over Great Britain, & swarm into Iraq to overwhelm US properties.

Some may remember that I said, quoting from the words of Nostradamus, (celebrated priest, scientist, & physician, author & oracle) -- in his Epistle to King Henry 1558 (approx) he wrote that there would be a War, where the hordes would swarm from Persia into Babylonia, and try to remove the Christians from their occupation of that land. They would remove the Christians, a new Babylonia would emerge, & then the End of the world.

(It is an undeniable fact that the nation of Persia is NOW IRAN, and the hordes from there would enter Babylonia (NOW IRAQ) to get rid of the Christian invaders (the USA) -- & when we leave, there will be a New Iraq, for a short time, & then the End of the World.

Nostradamus predicted a War in which 2 Muslim nations, adjacent to one another, specifically IRAN and IRAQ, would fight to eliminate a Christian nation that was invading them. & start up a New Iraq, But when this occurred, the End of the world follows.

Predicted date (3797) but when adjusted by N's own calculations (using his code) the date is 2005.

We can now see the massive build up of Muslim radical Islamics, IN IRAN, waiting to overflow that border & attack the USA, (if not doing it already) to rid the Middle East of a Christian invader nation, which is USA. When that occurs, a new Iraq emerges, & then the End comes, (predicted year 2005).

Now TELL ME THIS: How did Nostradamus know in 1558, (66 yrs after Chris Columbus sailed to America) and 218 years BEFORE the American Revolution, that we would be invading IRAQ, & that IRAN would send tons of warriors over to get rid of us? And that this would happen near 2005? ASTRONOMICAL ODDS.

Name:	Mercy Moi
To:	Libertad & Justicia para todos

In response to:
Various replies to my posts (last Forum):

(1) John Birch (2) Am Person of American Nation (3) Miss Otie (4) Magpie (5) Smedley.

(1) John Birch -- You said that 4 C's and a B = a "C" average. Hurray. You are right. But that is only averaging 5 grades from 5 classes. Before you graduate from most colleges you require 42 grades to be averaged. Over a period of 4 yrs. Considering his deprecating humor, he might have blew off a few.

(2) Am Person of American Nation - who tells us that E PLURIBUS UNUM means the confederation of the sovereign states. Partially right. (see # 4 below)

(3) Miss Otie -- says that 5 "C's & 1 B = B avg. No, it would be a C average, like Bush had. But you are trying. Again, that would only be 6 classes avg, but to graduate college, you need 42 + grades avg'd.

Miss Otie also says that I could not get all A's and B's. Then calls ME a "fool" & "uneducated liar"

Again, she proves my point. First of all I DID get all A's & B's, and GPA was 3.8 (something you would not know about, not being in college), And it does not seem you learn quickly when it comes to ad hominem attacks. Faulty Logic. (attacking a person).

(4) Magpie - poor guy/girl - says E PLURIBUS UNUM is meant to say something different. Magpie says that the Pluribus is First, so I have no right to put an emphasis on the ONE. (He calls collective) Then he calls me a "dedicated socialist neo-coM, making Karl Marx proud." Then said "das kapital is my Bible"

Obviously has some fixation on Ka-rl Ma-rx, for unexplained reasons. Certainly has nothing at all to do with me, so Go Figure. I did see the Groucho Ma-rx show on TV, though. My Bible is the traditional King James Protestant Bible, but I use Catholic ones once in a while to study which books Luther discarded.

Means "from many, one", or creating ONE from the Many" ---- first symbolized unity of 13 colonies at the Am Revolution, but acquired new meaning as waves of immigrants swept over our shores, & is not thought to symbolize America as ONE NATION from MANY peoples, cultures, & nations. (official sources, not just my opinion of the words.)

It is particularly puzzling what orientation you have in YOUR schools, where you think or imagine that everyone but you are "socialists" or "Mar-xists"? It must have been a very strange school, indeed, -- was it in Appalachia? I once read one chapter of that book, required reading in comparative Govt classes in Political Science in college. Most of the students in that class were military officers. Back from Vietnam.

(5) Smedley, -- who said Al Gore was only a C student in his political science degree, & dropped out of Law school & Divinity school. And you said his college (Vanderbilt) was a joke, or not a good one.

Born 1948, in Wash DC, since his Dad was a US Congressman (from TN). Al Gore is now 56 years old). Married about 30 yrs, w/ 4 children.

Al graduated from Harvard, in 1969, (with honors) getting his degree in Government.

When back to civilian life, Al Gore became an investigative reporter for The Tennessean newspaper, (Nashville) for 5 years.

He also did some real estate business, owned a small farm, and attended Vanderbilt Divinity School for one year, & Vanderbilt Law School for 2 years.

Al Gore was elected to the US Congress, House of Representatives in 1976, for 8 years.

Followed by election to the US Senate in 1984 and again in 1990. (He won in all 95 counties - a record)

Al Gore was the VICE PRESIDENT OF THE USA, from 1992 until 2000, - serving 2 terms, with Clinton.

Al Gore was the Democratic candidate for the US Presidency in 2000, but was defeated by Bush.

As to your opinion of VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY, it was recently visited by George Bush, (this week) and Bush praised it for being "a center of excellence".

Founded in 1873, it is near Nashville, TN, and was rated by the Wall Street Journal as # 15 in the Best Business Schools in the World.

and rated # 17th in Law Schools. These are very high ratings, since some schools are past # 39.

Well, once again, we find out that Smedley was not telling the truth about Al Gore. Review his own comments.(above). Or his "original" Forum post.

While those on the right wing, consistently call us liars, or any other insults they make up, it can easily be shown WHO is telling the Truth, by some simple Research. I don't like to waste my time doing this, but it is worth while occasionally to do it, just to illustrate my point. BON JOUR (Happy Day) : )

Name:	Scroll Mouse
To:	Merci Moi

Message:
Being the most educated, most intelligent and most diversely tuned (from world & job experiences) person on this forum, you may have overlooked some of the small things. It’s the small things that paint a vision of who you are and what you are all about. You are known to complain that others personally attack you on a daily basis. You yourself do a whole lot of attacking, but you sometimes you do it in a passive-aggressive style. You are not the victim that you would like to have us all believe. For example, when you say things like “BON JOUR (Happy Day)”, it makes you appear like a pompous condescending jerk. Why you may ask? It’s like this. You ask your neighbor to watch your house for you during your vacation and at the end of the note left on the counter you say, “the key is under the door mat (you stick it in the lock to UN-LOCK & LOCK the door)

Name:	Mercy Moi
To:	Scroll Mouse

Message:
Saying Happy Day is condescending? I think you should look that phrase up somewhere, cuz you sure got it WRONG.

In MY book saying Happy Day is a goodwill greeting to anybody I say it to. It is meant to convey that although many people attack me daily here, I do not hold eternal grudges, but sincerely would rather get along with these people, a little bit. But since YOU and they insist on misinterpreting every word I say, then there is no point.

If someone can say "Good Day" is condescending, then it is obvious you are coming from mental attitude that is way beyond my understanding. Meanwhile they say things like "I would like to stick a knife in your cunt, & cute things like that. Now WHO is doing the attacking. Me, saying Have a Happy Day? Or them, saying they would like to kill me? You answer THAT one. Then of course being called such cute little names as "dedicated Marxist" and saying that das kapital is my Bible, -- first of all, there is nothing that I have ever said in my entire LIFE that can bring that on, and being insulted with stupid crap that would make Mother Theresa throw off her veil and beat them senseless, I think you can be GLAD I am passive-aggressive, since if I ever DID let loose, there would be Hell to pay. But I do try to get through a little bit here & there, to see if any mind is functioning at all, & sometimes they show me they have a true potential for right choices, & are worth TRYING.

I hope to God that people can still be reached with the Truth, since things are going downhill so fast, the World does not have much time left to straighten things out.

America is not just some tiny 3rd world country, - OUR leadership is most Critical to the survival of Freedom on the entire planet, & we cannot have semi-morons running this country. Truly, that is a fact, no matter if you are a Democrat or Republican. We need the BEST MINDS up there in Washington DC, and we sure are not getting them at the top levels of this cabinet and Executive Branch. Even George Tenet says, "we do not have enough human intelligence".

We are on the very brink of global war, hideous attacks from inside & outside our borders, (thanks to George not sealing them off) and now that George has the entire Arab world against us, (& they control the world's oil supply) we can expect severe shortages & economic devastation. It is the worst mess America has ever been in, (even counting the Revolution & the Civil War & the Great Depression).

If you were to go back 10 months ago, (or whenever) I began on this Forum, I came here innocently not knowing what to expect or think. I had only recently gotten onto the Net at all, & never been on ANY Forum. I thought it would be nice to meet some people who liked Hillary, & I was shocked to hear the vile insane crap that was written here against Hillary. But innocently, I started writing some articles, & thinking this Forum should be 50/50 for & against her, & looking forward to some good natured talks and debates. Instead this hateful screaming insults crap was incessant & unending. Every time I wrote ANYTHING, it was attacked. I could say Have a Happy Day, & it would be attacked. So I tried to remain calm & civil and go ahead with my articles. But in between death threats, evil sick stuff, & vicious insults, I began to wonder what the Hell is loose in here? It sounded like the juvenile branch of the Psycho Ward, and I am not exaggerating or kidding.

Well, I don't care if you are the Pope or Mother Theresa, there comes a point when you will attack back, or leave, and I am not one who gives up & retreats. Mostly I just go ahead and post my stuff. Most people here do not know WHY I post here. They think I want interaction with them. But basically I write for totally different reasons. I write so SOME one who accidentally stumbles onto this Forum might find some representation of liberal thought, & that I may share an idea or a Poem or an article that may open people's eyes to new ideas.

I posted the article on the visit to Iraq, (the Garden of Eden) yesterday or the day before. Called "In the Beginning" he went over to see and photograph the Biblical wonders in Iraq, before they were all blown to bits. I put on here Poetry & thoughts & ideas. I don't expect everyone to agree, but it does nobody any good to attack me, if they think it will force me to leave, because I never will leave for that reason. I will leave only when I choose to.

Ever since I can remember, I have believed in the eternal principle of Freedom of Speech and Freedom of the Press. Thomas Jefferson said it was most important, and if he HAD to choose between govt without a press, or for Press without a govt, --- he would choose the Press.

I also know the Founders of this nation were liberal thinkers, revolutionaries, visionaries, broad-minded, and brilliant minds. If they had been C average, we would not ever have survived these 228 years. The men who deliberated & created this Constitution, were miraculously the best and the brightest of their time. And dedicated to God. And I know some nit-picker will go find some obscure statement that one of the Founders said, that might indicate that he was an atheist, (just trying to pick a fight). But in general, they all believed in God and a Divine mission.

Anyway, I started out innocently, not knowing what to expect. But after a short period I KNEW what to expect, I knew they would attack any word, syllable or idea that I wrote, so I just ignored them for a very long time. But it kept up & got so vicious that I hit them back a few times, but any time I hit them back it was MILD in comparison with what they said to (or about) me. Always a REACTION to their endless harassment. But if they thought i would leave and go away, they were mistaken. I AM HERE FOR A REASON, and they do not even know what it is.

Most of this stuff, I do not write for the people who inhabit this forum. I write it for someone else. I do not care who reads my posts, or who does not. I do not care what they think about my posts, or what they approve of. It is inconsequential to me. I am not here to do combat. I came here to meet nice people who may like Hillary and I met the denizens of some Hell hole I cannot imagine.

So I am still determined to do what I came for, and I am still doing it. Even if 90% of the people here would love to scream insults, attack & destroy --- I do not care about that. I am here for the 1% or the 5% or the FEW who do care about the Truth, & telling the truth. I am here for ME. It is great to have a way to speak my mind. And I do not come here for combat, or to be condescending. I come here simply for the Freedom of Speech/Press I hold sacred.

I have the moniker (sometimes) of Mercy Moi. I just made that up in 10 seconds the day I entered this place. It has no meaning to me, since I am not French & I do not speak more than 4 or 5 words of French. I also have one old moniker of Chiang Lee, but I am not Chinese, either. So if somebody is all screaming because they think i am French, they are wrong. Although it should be obvious from 99% of my posts I am an American. (3rd generation). Since 1890.

Anyway, going back 10 months, you would probably never see the insults & threats made against every one of my posts, since ET deleted the rotten crap. So you would only see my "reactions" to that barrage of incredible shrieking nonsense -- sometimes filling the entire forum. It was so hideous, that ET was upset by it. But the death threats are uncalled for, for anyone here, and I mean ANYONE. I think you know the FBI gets involved when they do things like that, but no left winger does or says criminal stuff like that, & the right wingers seem evil & demented at times.

Even saying that, I know there are some good decent and intelligent right wingers who come here occasionally and dazzle me with their charm and humor. I hate to admit it, but I have dated at least 3 Republicans who were very good men, & we were Best Friends, but that was before things got polarized & divided like they've been since the late 70's.

Anyway, I am just telling you that what you see, is a "result" of being harassed & attacked, even more viciously than you see this month, or last month, - it was ten times worse--- for all these months, so that I do not always feel like being "sweetsie" to the people here, who come back day after day, for no other purpose, than to attack liberals.

Knowing that most of them have had their mind filled with ignorant rubbish that proceeds out of the mouth of Rush Limbaugh, another less-than-C student, who flunked out of college, got a phoney medical deferment to keep him from serving in Viet Nam, did cocaine in late teens, & admits to being a drug addict now.

Let's see: A drop-out, dope addict, draft-dodger who spews lies. Grew up in a rich Republican household where his daddy owned half the town, & a radio station. He did not have much excuse for doping, dropping out, & draft dodging -- coming from that . If ANY Liberal had that kind of crime record, well, he would be called any name in the book. BUT as long as Rush is a "right wing" doper, drop-out, draft dodger, --- he is made an honorary GOP member of Congress. They worship Idiots.

If they confined their hero worship of idiots to a small country club, men's club, or whatever, but to DEFILE the Congress of the United States with that windbag liar, is sacreligious. This country cannot afford RIGHT NOW above all, to celebrate & elect IDIOTS.

I took maybe 50 classes plus, in college, way above the requirement,- and one semester I had too full a schedule & did not have time to do ANYTHING in "one class" for the first half of the semester. I had to skip a couple classes, & Not study much for that course, & hardly opened the textbook. (This is for the first 1/2 of ONE CLASS). I was just over-worked with all my other classes. When we got mid-semester grades, I got a C (for 1/2 grade) - I got a C for doing absolutely NOTHING in that class.

I worked real hard to recover lost ground for the rest of that semester, & got an A the second half, so it all averaged out to a B.

But the POINT I am trying to make here, is that I got a C ---- repeat a C --- (like George Bush's average grade) for doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, not even going to all the classes, or doing homework, or opening & studying texts.

So that is why I am shocked that anybody with a C average can be President. You do not have to do ANYTHING to get a C average. NOTHIHG.

Well, Scroll Mouse, I don't know if you were trying to aggravate me or not, but your wording in your post shows you are one of the intelligent ones here. I appreciate your advice, if that was what was intended, but you apparently were not here to see HOW this attitude of mine developed due to their continual attacks when I first came here.

Second, a person who has a reputation for honesty and who has never written a single LIE on this Forum, gets to be called a LIAR by some rather questionable minds, you cannot expect me to just say Have a Happy Day, Forever, they are going to get something back once in awhile. But I don't waste my time responding to most of the weirdness. Frankly, Life is too short. Have a Happy Day : )

Name:

Civil Bagdasarian

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	Govt Computer Surveillance Rings Alarm Bells

	Submitted By:mark
	Click for Source Article
	Nine months after Congress shut down a controversial Pentagon computer-surveillance program, the U.S. government continues to comb private records to sniff out suspicious activity, according to a congressional report obtained by Reuters. Privacy concerns prompted Congress to kill the Pentagon's $54 million Total Information Awareness program last September, but government computers are still scanning a vast array of databases for clues about criminal or terrorist activity, the General Accounting Office found. Overall, 36 of the government's 199 "data mining" efforts collect personal information from the private sector, a move experts say could violate civil liberties if left unchecked. Several appear to be patterned after Total Information Awareness, which critics said could have led to an Orwellian surveillance state in which citizens have little privacy. "I believe that Total Information Awareness is continuing under other names, and the (Defense Department) projects listed here might fit that bill," said Peter Swire, an Ohio State University law professor who served as the Clinton administration's top privacy official. Defense Department officials did not respond to a request for comment. Data-mining software has been used by the government and private businesses for years to make sense of large piles of information. Banks use data-mining tools to sniff out possible credit-card fraud, for example. Most government data-mining projects aim to improve service or cut down on waste and fraud, the report said. The U.S. Navy tracks each ship part ordered since 1980 to see which ones fail most frequently, while the Department of Education checks its student loan records against those held by the Social Security Administration to make sure it is not loaning money to dead people. Others projects raised red flags for privacy experts. The Pentagon agency that handled TIA is not working on any data-mining projects, but another agency is mining intelligence reports and Internet searches "to identify foreign terrorists or U.S. citizens connected to foreign terrorism activities," the report said. That description prompted Electronic Privacy Information Center general counsel David Sobel to file a Freedom of Information Act request to find out more about the project. "Congress now needs to take a close look at ways to oversee and regulate the use of data-mining technology within the government," he said. Hawaii Democratic Sen. Daniel Akaka said he had asked the GAO, the investigative arm of Congress, to examine some projects more closely. "The federal government collects and uses Americans' personal information and shares it with other agencies to an astonishing degree, raising serious privacy concerns," Akaka said in a statement. The report shows that data mining can be a useful tool for the government, but safeguards should be put in place to ensure that information is not abused, said Nuala O'Connor Kelly, chief privacy officer at the Department of Homeland Security. Swire said the report did not appear to list any Justice Department programs that use information from data aggregators ChoicePoint Inc. and Acxiom Corp., even though the agency has signed contracts with those companies. The Justice Department did not return a call seeking comment. The report also failed to note a planned airline passenger-screening system that has drawn widespread criticism from lawmakers and air travelers.

Name:	Naziir Bani Sadr
To:	Merci Moi
Re:	Grand Rigamarole

In response to:
(It is an undeniable fact that the nation of Persia is NOW IRAN, and the hordes from there would enter Babylonia (NOW IRAQ) to get rid of the Christian invaders (th

Message:
Those Hordes are just plain SILLY! All they need to do to send those pesky Christians packing is to call in the ACLU.

Name:	Scroll Mouse
To:	Merci Moi
Re:	Over-explaining things to people can be insulting

In response to:
"...Saying Happy Day is condescending? I think you should look that phrase up somewhere, cuz you sure got it WRONG..."

Message:
You misunderstood my point. Saying “BON JOUR” and THEN explaining that it means “Happy Day” comes across as condescending. Bon Jour is probably understood by most people you know and by most people on the forum.

The unnecessary definition comes across as if you think we are too stupid to know the meaning and you are teaching us. That is the point I was trying to make. I have noticed that you do that from time to time in your posts and thought you may not be aware of it.

Name:	Mercy Moi
To:	Scroll Mouse

In response to:
Old Ways die hard, Scroll Mouse. I have been a teacher since the age of 12, & even before that. I have watched the posters here, for quite some time, and if you think they understand foreign languages, you are wrong. I had to explain that very word to an electrical engineer, only 2 weeks ago. HE DID NOT KNOW IT. Just because YOU may know something, does NOT mean anyone else does. Bon Jour : )

Message:
Do you honestly think that people who sit here writing the insults all day on this forum, & who never heard of Nostradamus, & do not understand his importance in the ancient world, -- do you think they study FRENCH? You may live in a bubble, but even brief exposure on this Forum should tell you otherwise. However, I have never studied French either. I did pick up a couple words by accident.

Scroll Mouse, is that your only moniker? You sound like a very reasonable, enlightened person. I am glad to meet you. It looks like we can chat, even if you are being so condescending, in your method of attacking me. : )

My attitude is the natural progression of an innocent person who appeared here, not knowing what to expect, but with reasonable expectations that on a HILLARY forum, I could meet a few nice Democrats. WRONG. Very few.

So when you take home a baby puppy, an innocent little creature, and when you get him in the house, he comes up to you, with innocent loving eyes, expecting to be treated as a friendly happy eager little pet. But instead of patting him and feeding him, like any normal pet-owner, you instead start kicking him, & beating him with a stick, & banish him to the basement, where he is cold, lonely. unfed & thirsty. The next day, when you open the door, the innocent little dog comes up to you wagging his tail, hoping at last to have a decent master, and you kick him again, shout nasty words at him, call him a Cur, lousy flea bitten mongrel, & scream at him. He is again kept in the dark basement with no food or water. This goes on for weeks and weeks, with you screaming insults at the poor little dog, until he curls up in the corner, whimpering softly, & afraid to move at all. Then you get even worse, with nastier insults and yell threats to kill the dog, if he barks at all. Then you continue the beating & whipping. By the end of 10 months, I can guarantee you that little dog will no longer come near you without growling, and snarling, & baring his teeth.

So after 10 months on this forum, I may not be the same innocent person, who came here expecting to find a decent place to debate and interact with normal friendly people. Open hostility & insults & threats from day one, with such intense ferocity & hatred, it even upset ET, who is calm at all times. So now I no longer come here smiling & giggly or expecting good treatment. I come here ready to growl. So EXCU-U-U-USE ME !! if I have a "condescending" manner.

Name:	Nostradamnus
To:	Merci MOO
Re:	Do not overshoot the EDGE OF TIME!

In response to:
Simple. He just astrally-projected himself to 2003 and had a nice little sit-down with ART BELL.

Message:
Art Bell is my true source for all my writings. Astral projection is quite easily accomplished, and one may roam the Epochs at will with but one caveat.

A word of WARNING: Do not on any account overshoot 2004. What lies beyond is but horror beyond telling.

Name:	Lady Mary Wortley
To:	Nostradamnus

In response to:
Astral projection is quite easily accomplished

Name:	The Mormon Oracle At Thermal, Utah
To:	Merci Moi
Re:	DOOM.

In response to:
A word of WARNING: Do not on any account overshoot 2004. What lies beyond is but horror beyond telling. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message:
As you know, these are the very last days. The writings of Nostradamus, as interpreted by you, Merci Moi, as well as the great Aztec Calendar and other ancient authorities, all place The End very close to 2005 C.E.

The Rapture-ists are astir across the land, and the Gideons and LDS are holding their secret ceremonies in deep secret.

The computer has allowed a certain obscure Religious Sect to complete the translation of the King James Bible into all of the languages of Earth far ahead of their projected schedule. That is another Sure Sign that The End is upon Us. Odd, isn't it, how the invention of the Helicopter led to the End of Time? But there it is for all who can see to see. The Helicopter allowed our Scientists to penetrate the Amazon to find the Stone Age Peoples who have been hiding there all along, waiting to give their Language to fulfill the Prophecy, and so the Religious Sect got ahold of their languages (from these scientist-types) to translate The Bible into.

Bush has ruined everything. Sikorsky probably got both money and Yoil from Prescott Bush for his experiments.

The Wise will begin preparation now, for Time is very short. The Election is only 6 months away. You will need boots. Lots of boots. Sausage grinders, also. Get the hand-cranked ones, and you'll need some pigs to grind up, too. Get every generator you can lay your hands on, and all the dried beans that you can beg, borrow, or steal. Gather your people and make your way deep into The Mountains. This is IT, people. This is the BIG ONE. This is NO DRILL.

Name:	Toothless DragonFly
To:	Mormons Oracle

In response to:
The last days. Secret ceremonies. Do not overshoot 2004. Get ahold of all the generators and dried beans you can find. Gather your people into the mountains, this is the BIG ONE, This is NO DRILL.

Message:
Yes, you are pretty direct on Target. The Mormons do have a belief about Jesus appearing in the Aztec regions, to preach to those people. I can't remember which book of the Book of Mormon,- Moroni? I studied this briefly in 1987, but have forgotten so much of it. They kept begging me to join and be baptized in the Temple. But I just could not believe all the details. Like you could be married to many people at once, & that the dead had to be baptized, even if they had been dead for a couple of centuries.

And the sheepskin underwear, and the idea that men can prophesy, and talk to God directly, but not the women. I did find a passage in their book that DID say women could prophesy & talk to God, too, which made my Mormon elder teacher blush red, (with embarrassment, or anger, I don't know). But he clearly had not read the entire thing. (ha)

I also didn't like that they made you spend at least 3 hours each Sunday at church. Give me a break, I get bored in one hour, much less three. Not bored of the Mormon stuff but bored at ANY church. I started studying the Bible and went every Sunday at age 4. So by now, I am just hearing the same old stuff for the nine millionth time, and it does get boring. I liked the people, though. I really liked that they did not smoke or drink. They are strictly moral, and that is a good thing. And I like Marie & Donny Osmond, too.

I want to see the beautiful Temples. A few photos of them looked beautiful. Golden statues, marble floors, like a palace or museum. One thing bothered me, was that they won't let you drink coffee, or tea, or caffeine of any kind. That is my only vice. I like iced tea pretty often. They come into your house & check to see if you have been naughty or nice. Might check cupboards for evil coffee and tea. (ha) This I thought was going to the Extreme.

Also, they demand you pay 10% (or more) to the church, even if you are not a high income. This makes some people poorer than they already are, if they have a big family to feed. However, I have seen that the Mormons do take care of their own people. Doing favors for them, and providing the things people cannot buy. They seem to be kind & generous.

Next thing that worried me, was the way they want to have total control over your life. They fill you up with activities, (required attendance) so you never have time to develop your own hobbies or ideas. BUT THIS ONE REALLY GOT ME. They send you off on a "mission". No matter you have gotten married, have 3 children in a good school, & just got the best job of your life. The LDS church can tell you that you are needed on some "mission" to go to Paducah Idaho, or Slugbottom Springs, Louisiana --- & you have to give up your house, your job, & kids schools, to pack up and rush off to Hicksville. I just don't get this item.

One thing I DID like a lot, was the way in which the whole congregation could get up and give a sermon, and I was happy to see that ordinary women could sermonize as often as the men. It was awfully hard to walk away from that lovely group of good people, -- but I had to have some time to determine if I could give up coffee & tea (I guess so), but also give up my Free Will, and Free Time, to be a full time servant. I have loved Freedom far too much, to be willing to give it up now. But the church was appealing.-- My sweet elder and his wife still ask me to join up.

Name:	The Entity Formerly Known As Rampo
To:	Nostradamnus
Re:	Chris Columbus

In response to:
All them nekiid women, and all that Columbus fool can think about is gold and tomatoes!

Message:
Tell Ol' Chris that he's a big ass and that he reeks of garlic. Tell him I said so!

(He calls collective) Then he calls me a "dedicated socialist neo-coM, making Karl Marx proud." Then said "das kapital is my Bible"

when somkeine always emphasises the collective over the individual as you do-what am i supposed to think?

my reasons are well known. socialism/communism are still very much alive. ever since the best president of the 20th century called their bluff and they collapsed and became discredited (except for the college campus-hollywood-teachers unions-and assorted democrats) they've disguised themselves in the eco-fems-homo-degenerate rights crowd. like you and hillary.

say the magic word and get $100 from george fenniman! the magic word is totaliterean.

My Bible is the traditional King James Protestant Bible, but I use Catholic ones once in a while to study which books Luther discarded.

---- first symbolized unity of 13 colonies at the Am Revolution, but acquired new meaning as waves of immigrants swept over our shores, & is not thought to symbolize America as ONE NATION from MANY peoples, cultures, & nations. (official sources, not just my opinion of the words.)

It is particularly puzzling what orientation you have in YOUR schools, where you think or imagine that everyone but you are "socialists" or "Mar-xists"?

many different ones but none in appalachia although the georgia school districts and the university in virginia i had dealings with may qualify.

I once read one chapter of that book, required reading in comparative Govt classes in Political Science in college.

Most of the students in that class were military officers. Back from Vietnam.

Name:	Lord Keotane
To:	Magpie
Re:	Mandantory quadruple tithes and a whole lot more...

In response to:
MOO

Message:
You mustn't contradict Merci MOO. It makes her puppy growl. Odd, isn't it, how MOO fears to enter the Mormon Village, yet joyfully immerses herself into the much more restrictive and tyranical Socialist Village? She's on an evangelical brainwashing mission for Socialism, and in her enthusiastic dedication, she doesn't even seem to realize it!

Name:	Master Kelvinator
To:	Merci Moi

In response to:
The last and most important race ever.

Message:
I don't see the point of all of this chitter-chatter about Hillary's "running mate". There is absolutely no need of any "running mate" of any kind whatsoever. Tradition? To hell with that! As Progressives pyrsyns, bulldozing tradition is our tofu and Evian.

Hillary, and Hillary alone has more than ample experience to enable her to be both President and Vice President simultaneously and to do so for as long a period of time as she shall deem expedient for Change.

Has she not already been Co-President for eight long and tumultuous years? She has, and what a stellar performance she turned in, in spite of Mellon Scaife and that other vile wretch! Not to mention Gingrich!!!

In short, the answer to all the vacuous questions surrounding the last election ever is HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON. No one else on earth posesses her unique qualifications and gritty, hands-on experience at the tough, nuts-and- bolts job of bring urgently-needed Change to our at-risk democratic Village.

Name:	Scroll Mouse
To:	Merci Moi

In response to:
"...Scroll Mouse, is that your only moniker? You sound like a ...."

Message:
Based on the many hours I’ve spent reading many posts, I can’t think of anyone on this forum, with the exception of Slimmerson who doesn’t post under more than one moniCker. I could be wrong.

It is very interesting to watch how someone’s writing style, use of punctuation, capitalization, etc. come through (and I suspect deliberately) under their different pseudonyms.

Name:	TMOATU
To:	Scroll Mouse

In response to:
The Rapture-ists are astir across the land, and the Gideons and LDS are holding their secret ceremonies in deep secret. The computer has allowed a certain obscure Religious Sect to complete the translation of the King James Bible into all of the languages of Earth far ahead of their projected schedule. That is another Sure Sign that The End is upon Us. Odd, isn't it, how the invention of the Helicopter led to the End of Time? But there it is for all who can see to see. The Helicopter allowed our Scientists to penetrate the Amazon to find the Stone Age Peoples who have been hiding there all ...

Message:
The above is simulated MOOspeak. What follows, under "Toothless Dragonfly" is probably genuine MOO.

Message:
These childish Right Wingers are obviously unaware of the dynamics of macro-economic scoring using regressive/dithering Lemke's Curve logarithms. Ranked sets and diametric challenges yield the most repeatable and corollary datumset outcomes. Of course, we must always look to the top for our lodestar, ie: Clinton was a miracle.

Name:	Mercy Moi
To:	good right wingers
Re:	Thank you for being here

In response to:
Truly appreciate the good intelligent right wingers who come here to actually talk, & show humor and have fun. Much could be accomplished, if we recognize each other as simply Americans, instead of the usual mud-slinging.

Message:
I just realized something (maybe important?) that the good rightwingers who show up sporadically, probably never see the vile members of their Party & the porn & obscenity they post, on a continual basis. THAT is what we are negatively responding to, --- we WELCOME sincere good Republicans.

Some of the best seem to be here today, but when you came, maybe the odious posts had been already deleted, so you never did see those. That is good I guess, -- we don't want you to 'lose your breakfast', this early on.

I DO feel it necessary to say that YOU ARE WRONG, in the extreme, if you have any idea about Socialism being on our agenda in the Democratic Party. We do support ideas of helping our fellow man, the aged, sick, disabled, & those who have fallen into extremely bad circumstances, -- like a good young man, who volunteered for the Army & then came home with many physical problems, amputations, etc. HE needs our love and support. THAT IS NOT SOCIALISM, --- THAT IS CHARITY. But in ONE NATION, UNDER GOD, we have a Govt that engages in Charity. It always has, since the beginning. The founders were religious men, & they wanted to set up a govt that was a "servant" & helper to ALL.

Tom Paine was not a rich man, & he was always trying to make sure that all citizens would be taken care of in some way or another, --- land grants (remember this was once an empty continent, hardly any people) and he said that the purpose of Govt was partially res-publica (affairs of the republic) which had a responsibility to safeguard the general welfare. (the common good, benefit & prosperity).

SHARING is a prominent idea of Christianity. The true Christian Church teaches the idea of sharing, out of charity & human kindness, to please your God. But there is a hidden reason why you should be kind to someone who is downtrodden. Think about this:

(a) If you feed a beggar, he will be grateful, & not be trying to stick a knife in your back to steal your wallet.

(b) If you are kind to a stranger, you may someday be surprised, when he is the Mayor of your city, or the best lawyer in the country. He might remember your kindness.

(c) Some old Chinese proverb says that the world can operate under a system of reciprocal good deeds: If anyone does a good deed for you, then you must go out and do about ten good deeds to others. And if the entire nation did this custom, it would be FULL of good people doing good deeds in great abundance. The whole landscape would be harmonious & full of goodwill. Thus all of society would flourish.

Wouldn't that be a good thing to teach our youth? To do good deeds? I know my generation did think that way to some extent. It was called "idealism" and JFK started the Peace Corps, to do good all over the World. It worked so well for a very long time. Other nations LOVED America, for being such good kind people, generous & helping & Christian.

Think of our OWN streets, if people would help an old lady across the street, if you dropped your quarter & not be able to make a phone call, someone would offer you one of their quarters. People smiled & did favors & good deeds for their neighbors, their co-workers, etc. If everybody was actively trying to fulfill their quota of good deeds, the world could be transformed almost over-night. I wonder if it is too late? Can gang-bangers learn this lesson? Is the corruption of our hearts & minds gone too far, to ever hope to get decency back?

The Bible teaches that God was going to destroy a very bad city. But one inhabitant asked God, --- maybe you could reconsider this, "what if there were 20 good men living in that city? Would you destroy it then?" And God thought for a couple minutes & said., "Well, no , I guess if there were 20 good men living there, I could reconsider" Then the inhabitant said, "Well, what if there were only TEN good men in that city? - Would you still destroy it?" And God said "No, I guess I could re-think this thing, for the TEN good men'. Then the inhabitant said, "Well, what if there were FIVE good men, & no more? Would you still destroy the city, then?" Finally it worked out that God said he would not destroy the city if there were just a few, maybe one or two, still living there. I wish I had the names right here, but we might have a Biblical scholar handy who would know that. WE CAN BARGAIN WITH GOD. He has done a few of those miraculous bargains in the past.

Things are so bad, I can't see how we can possibly keep the final days from happening. We are probably in the final countdown right now. We might have one year, or up to one year & 4 months. (At the most, probably 7 years).

BUT, if we could BARGAIN WITH GOD, -- maybe we could buy a few extra years. It would require a total change of heart of American People. The evil & corruption would have to be put aside, & people would have to heal the hatred in their own hearts. The "good deed" principle would be a very good way to start it out, but -- so little time.

Name:	Monkey Tan
To:	Merci Moi

In response to:
The founders were religious men, & they wanted to set up a govt that was a "servant" & helper to ALL.

Message:
They did no such thing. The United States government is neither a religious nor a charitable organization.

Name:	Monkey Tan
To:	Merci Moi

In response to:
a) If you feed a beggar, he will be grateful, & not be trying to stick a knife in your back to steal your wallet.

Name:	Delbert Denteverde
To:	MOO
Re:	That damned Rachel Carson ruined everything!

In response to:
It worked so well for a very long time. Other nations LOVED America, for being such good kind people, generous & helping & Christian

Message:
Ah, those halcyon days... we were all Johnny Kennedy's little international boy scouts. Our dear friends, the Soviet Communists, how they did love us! And even today, Dear Leader loves us to distraction since we gave him that nifty hot water bottle!

Name:	Boo Radley
To:	Merci Moi
Re:	We must distribute quarters in South Central!

In response to:
Things are so bad, I can't see how we can possibly keep the final days from happening. We are probably in the final countdown right now. We might have one year, or up to one year & 4 months. (At the most, probably 7 years).

Message:
Bush has ruined everything. Kerry is hopeless. Only Hillary can save us. But will she? Maybe if we all gave her a quarter...

Name:	Jimmy Carter
To:	Merci Moi
Re:	I could use some spare change.

In response to:
We are probably in the final countdown right now.

Message:
Look, I'm working as fast as I can. I've put up 14,459 outhouses in 34 underserved Brown and Black nations. How about you climbing down from your pulpit and lending a hand?

Name:	Mrs. Quattlebaum
To:	Merci Moi
Re:	Barbarians among us!

In response to:
If you feed a beggar, he will be grateful, & not be trying to stick a knife in your back to steal your wallet.

Message:
The Poor are murderous. We must give them money or they will kill us all!

Name:	Jabaal
To:	Merci Moi
Re:	For want of a quarter, the Universe will be destroyed.

In response to:
BUT, if we could BARGAIN WITH GOD, -- maybe we could buy a few extra years. It would require a total change of heart of American People. The evil & corruption would have to be put aside, & people would have to heal the hatred in their own hearts. The "good deed" principle would be a very good way to start it out, but -- so little time.

Message:
There is no hope. Bush has ruined everything. America has brought on the End Of The World. Figures...

Name:	T.C.
To:	Lar
Re:	This businsess sucks, but...

In response to:
Bongo Bongo Bongo, I don't wanna leave the Congo - No no no, no sirree. Mam-mee, how I luv-ya, How I luv-ya, My dear old mammy, -- down beside that Swannee Shore. Kapuhh FFFFTTT -- Jabba the hut, Muhammed Allee, they's just white folks to me. >

Message:
You ought not beat up on Loretta Lynn. She's got more sense than you, and more talent besides.

I do think the Bongo Bong Bongo thing could take you somewhere, perhaps even somewhere you'd like to be. Check with MOO, she was with Capitol back in the Sixties, and she knows Specter and some other big shots who could turn the key for you.

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
Re:	Just trying out my new digital camera

Message:
Even he says: "HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON FOR PRESIDENT"

Name:	Old Mullah
To:	Hillary Supporter
Re:	Looking for a mud puddle

In response to:
I was taking some pics on Sunday w/my new digital camera

Name:

Individual

In response to:
when somkeine always emphasises the collective over the individual as you do-what am i supposed to think?

Message:
Speaking of the collective. Try the electoral college: The individual is subordinate to the collective (states). Try the procedure for amending the constitution: The individual is subordinate to the collective (states). Individuals can vote for a president, but their vote is mute if the collective decides the other way. Individuals can want a constitutional amendment, but their want is mute if the collective decides the other way.

Consistently Disconnected

By Richard Cohen
Thursday, May 27, 2004; Page A31

On a recent Sunday four men, stripped to their underpants, were paraded through the city on the back of a pickup truck. They were escorted by scores of masked men shouting "Allahu Akbar" (God is great) and their backs were bleeding from the 80 lashes each had received for selling alcohol. Later, they were treated at a hospital and released -- another example to the populace that things had radically changed.

Where has this happened, you're probably wondering? Well, it's Fallujah, the Iraqi city described by George Bush in the most serene terms in his address at the Army War College the other night. He mentioned the city when he said military commanders had exercised commendable restraint in not leveling the place after American contractors were killed and their bodies mutilated and hung from a bridge.

"We're making security a shared responsibility in Fallujah," the president told the nation. "Coalition commanders have worked with local leaders to create an all-Iraqi security force, which is now patrolling the city." But an Associated Press dispatch by Hamza Hendawi offers a different picture. The president's "all-Iraqi security force" has allowed Fallujah to become "an Islamic mini-state" -- complete with floggings and the usual restrictions on women. In this manner, it has been liberated from both the secular Saddam Hussein and the democratic Americans.

The contrast between what the president said and what the AP reported is jarring, but it is also somewhat typical. There was something detached about the president's address. Once again, for instance, he made Iraq the centerpiece of his war on terrorism when, as we all know by now, there was never a proven link between Hussein and al Qaeda. He went on in this vein nonetheless, not mentioning that it was weapons of mass destruction we were once after but, aside from a single trace of sarin uncovered recently and dating to before the Persian Gulf War, none have been found.

As for terrorism, the president made no mention of the apparent fact that the war in Iraq has proved a boon to terrorists. According to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, the war has been a recruiting tool for al Qaeda and other terrorist groups. Foreign fighters -- maybe as many as 1,000 of them -- have infiltrated Iraq, where they have been able to inflict casualties on American forces. They have made it even harder to bring Iraq under control and, in effect, have suckered the United States into the sort of guerrilla war we tried to avoid. In this respect, Iraq could wind up being an ambush.

On another matter, the president also talked as if he has been spending the past several weeks under the bed covers. He mentioned Abu Ghraib prison as "a symbol of disgraceful conduct by a few American troops," when it now seems that those "few" were either following orders or were operating with the silent approval of superiors who simply looked away from torture and abuse. The International Red Cross complained of this early on -- only to get a shrug from the military brass.

America is trapped. Having gone into Iraq, we cannot now pull out. In its own region, the country is more important than Vietnam ever was -- and not because it can become a democracy that will be emulated by others in the Middle East. It's rather that without an American military presence, Iraq will almost certainly fall into chaos, a bloody civil war that might well draw in its neighbors. Bad could turn out to be much worse.

But having said that, it's hard to feel confident that the Bush administration is prepared for the challenge ahead. It has been unforgivably incompetent so far, going to war for one reason, staying for another and layering contradictory facts with Sunday-school rhetoric. Fallujah, a compromised compromise, becomes a sterling success in the president's mouth. A systemic failure to abide by the Geneva Conventions becomes the kinky work of a few. The war over WMDs becomes one over terror. And Ahmed Chalabi, the erstwhile George Washington of Iraq, becomes Benedict Arnold virtually overnight. One moment he's Laura Bush's guest at the State of the Union speech; the next he's ranting anti-American screeds in Baghdad.

The Bush administration's rap on John Kerry is that he is inconsistent. The president's virtue, on the other hand, is supposedly his consistency. But to stick to the same rhetoric when the facts have changed, to insist on what is palpably false, to render black as white and to say it all with a childlike faith in civics class bromides is not commendable consistency. It is instead the mark of a narrow mind overwhelmed by large events.

cohenr@washpost.com

source...

Name:

Individual

In response to:
You said that 4 C's and a B = a "C" average. Hurray. You are right. But that is only averaging 5 grades from 5 classes. Before you graduate from most colleges you require 42 grades to be averaged. Over a period of 4 yrs. Considering his deprecating humor, he might have blew off a few.

Message:
What's all the flap about. As I remember, Gore graduated with honors from Harvard with a major in government. Bush couldn't graduate with honors from dog-catcher's school.

Name:	TheAmericanPeople
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
Gore graduated with honors from Harvard with a major in government. Bush couldn't graduate with honors from dog-catcher's school.

Message:
Al Gore FLUNKED out of law school and quit divinity school because of poor grades, I think he was smoking too much weed at the time (just like his son).

Algore only has an undergraduate degree therefore President Bush in more educated than Algore.

President Bush was a highly rated military fighter jet pilot, only the most intelligent in the military get to fly fighter jets. Algore was a reporter in the military for only 18 months (this option is only offered to the sons of wealthy and powerful Senators).

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
Speaking of the collective. Try the electoral college: The individual is subordinate to the collective (states). Try the procedure for amending the constitution: The individual is subordinate to the collective (states). Individuals can vote for a president, but their vote is mute if the collective decides the other way. Individuals can want a constitutional amendment, but their want is mute if the collective decides the other way.

Message:
You leave off the FACT that the "collective" you speak of is actually representatives that are democratically elected. That is how a Republic works; we elect representatives to do our work in the government. This fact totally deflates this point SPINdividual tries to present nearly every week.

The Founders of our country NEVER intended the President to be elected via mob role (popular vote).

The Founders of our country NEVER intended it to be easy to amend the constitution nor did they allow the constitution to amended via mob role (popular vote).

Seems Individual might have been doing bong hits in the parking lot during US Government class.

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
Bush couldn't graduate with honors from dog-catcher's school.

Message:
No, President Bush was just a highly rated military fighter jet pilot while Algore was figuring out how to use a typewriter while he was extremely stoned on the great weed he got in Nam.

BTW: Bush has a bachelor’s degree from Yale and an MBA from Harvard which puts him is a higher league than Al Gore since Algore failed when he attempted to get an advanced degree. Although I don’t think it is right to make fun of Algore now that he is going through his public mental breakdown. We should have sympathy for little Algore.

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	Editor

In response to:
ad hominem (abusive): instead of attacking an assertion, the argument attacks the person who made the assertion. (such as calling someone a liar.). EXAMPLE: You may argue that Kerry is a war hero, but you are just a liberal & a liar. (ad hominem abusive)

Message:
Calling somebody a lair when evidence shows they are lying is not an ad hominem attack.

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	Editor

In response to:
ad hominem (circumstantial): instead of attacking an assertion, the author points to the relationship between the person making the assertion and the person's circumstances. EXAMPLE: We should discount what Premier Klein says about taxation because he is too rich to care about the increase. (ad hominem circumstantial)

Message:
Wrong again. ad hominem (circumstantial) is related to circumstances that are unrelated to the issues at hand. One's wealth is related to the how one feels about taxation therefore that is not an ad hominem attack.

Name:

Individual

In response to:
An 11th-hour compromise saw Washington's choice of president make way for tribal chief Ghazi Yawar.

Message:
Cut-and-run is in process. Bush is being weak when he should be strong.

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	Editor

In response to:
ad hominem (tu quoque): this form of attack on the person notes that a person does not practice what he preaches EXAMPLE: You say I shouldn't drink, but you haven't been sober for more than a year. (ad hominem tu quoque) - (pronounced "too quo kwee")

Message:
Careful. Pointing out hypocrisy is not always an ad hominem attack. It depends on the context. Pointing out the hypocrisy of somebody that tells other people not to drink while drinking all the time is not an ad hominem attack per se. A better example would be "You say drinking can kill you but you must be wrong since you drink every day" (the ad hominem attack has nothing directly to do with the point at hand).

Name:

Individual

In response to:
Bush has a bachelor’s degree from Yale and an MBA from Harvard which puts him is a higher league than Al Gore since Algore failed when he attempted to get an advanced degree.

Message:
As is typical, right wingers are being evasive. The issue was grades. Graduating with honors is better, grade-wise, than scraping by with Cs--much, much better.

Name:

Individual

In response to:
This fact totally deflates this point SPINdividual tries to present nearly every week.

Message:
Typical evasion. A candidate can receive the most votes from individuals and still lose. A constitutional amendment can receive 75% of the votes from individuals and still lose. Stick to the point.

Name:	TheAmericanPeople
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
As is typical, right wingers are being evasive. The issue was grades. Graduating with honors is better, grade-wise, than scraping by with Cs--much, much better.

Message:
Typical lying Left Winger. The issue was education. Bush has more education than Algore.

Name:

Individual

Message:
Let's stick to the point. Bush's record in school is mediocre at best. Bush's record in the military is unbelievable for someone who supported the war. It is unbelievable that someone would do virtually everything in his power (and other's power) to avoid combat when he supported the war. A commander-in-chief should be made of better stuff.

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
To:	The Cold Hard Facts

In response to:
Calling somebody a lair when evidence shows they are lying is not an ad hominem attack

Message:
"Calling somebody a lair when evidence shows they are lying is not an ad hominem attack"

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	Ad Hominem Watch International

In response to:
ad hominem (abusive): instead of attacking an assertion, the argument attacks the person who made the assertion. (such as calling someone a liar.).

Not an ad hominem attack: "Individual says President Bush was AWOL therefore Individual is a liar because there is no evidence he was AWOL and overwhelming evidence (including lack of AWOL charge and honorary discharge) the he was not"

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
Especially when their creed is full of it. Maybe you hadn't heard. Get out your junior high school science text. Galileo was right.

Message:
OK Spin-boy, what does the Catholic creed and Galileo have in common? How did Galileo, a Catholic, disprove the Catholic creed?

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
Lest we forget Reagan, the hypocrite, here is a quote from his first inaugural address: "For decades, we have piled deficit upon deficit, mortgaging our future and our children's future for the temporary convenience of the present. To continue this long trend is to guarantee tremendous social, cultural, political, and economic upheavals. You and I, as individuals, can, by borrowing, live beyond our means, but for only a limited period of time. Why, then, should we think that collectively, as a nation, we are not bound by that same limitation?"

Message:
The reforms (deregulation and the peace dividend) of the Reagan era are the only reason we ALMOST had a balanced budget in the late 1990's.

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
"In the Reagan years, more federal debt was added than in the entire prior history of the United States."--Richard Darman (Reagan advisor),

Message:
And about the same amount was added in the Clinton years yet Bill Clinton was not fighting the cold war and he actually claimed the budget was balanced.

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
Except when the fighter jets are in a non-combat zone. Just a little detail you overlooked. As I said, others have called Bush a "chickenhawk." I have not made up my mind as yet.

Message:
Flying fighter jets is intellectually challenging and very dangerous wherever they are flown.

Bush chose to "serve" in a way which virtually guaranteed that he would not go in harm's way.

FACT: 100 members of the National Guard were killed in Vietnam. Guess you are lying again, National Guard duty was not a virtual guarantee to not go into harms way. FACT: Algore chose to "serve" (he was a reporter) in a way which virtually guaranteed that he would not go in harms way. (didn’t Algore’s daddy send bodyguards to keep Algore out of harms way?)

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	HILLARY SUPPORTER

In response to:
Yes, it is!! You know you're quilty, otherwise you would have dropped it by now.

If a person is lying about the topic of the debate, it is not an ad homenim attack to point that person is a liar.

Calling somebody a liar is not automatically ad hominem because it depends on the context and if the context is the truthful nature of the person clearly it is not ad hominem.

Reading a one sentence explanation of a logic fallacy is not a replacement for actually studying the subject of Logic.

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
As I said, others have called Bush a "chickenhawk." I have not made up my mind as yet.

Message:
Individual, you are a liar. You have called President Bush a "chickenhawk" hundreds of times.

Am I the only one that gets the feeling the Left is trying to twist the meaning of ad homenim so they can get away with lying?

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
Let's stick to the point. Bush's record in school is mediocre at best.

Message:
No. He graduated from TWO Ivory League schools (including an MBA from Harvard). That puts Bush is about the top 1%.

One thing we know for a fact, Bush's records at school are better than Algore's.

By design our system does not elect a President by popular vote. IT NEVER HAS! Your ignorance of our system of government is no excuse for you posting this nonsense. We don't elect a president via mob role (the popular vote). There is NOTHING in our system of government that is elected or passed by national mob role. There are no national referendums. Everything is done at the state level; that is why we are called the United States of America and not the People’s Republic of America.

A constitutional amendment can receive 75% of the votes from individuals and still lose. Stick to the point.

The founders spoke of the tyranny of democracy and mob role so they created a constitution that can not be alter based on the whim of the mob. Your ignorance of our system of government is no excuse for you posting this nonsense.

Name:

Individual

In response to:
The reforms (deregulation and the peace dividend) of the Reagan era are the only reason we ALMOST had a balanced budget in the late 1990's.

Message:
Why do you continue to engage in speculation? Do you know what a fact is? According to the OMB site, (Table 1.1, SUMMARY OF RECEIPTS, OUTLAYS, AND SURPLUSES OR DEFICITS (-) 1789-2008) in 1999, the on-budget surplus was 1.87 billion and in 2000, the on-budget surplus was 86.62 billion. Stick with the facts.

I know right wingers cringe when facts are presented. But here goes another fact: Under Clinton, we had the first on-budget surplus since 1960.

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
Why do you continue to engage in speculation? Do you know what a fact is? According to the OMB site, (Table 1.1, SUMMARY OF RECEIPTS, OUTLAYS, AND SURPLUSES OR DEFICITS (-) 1789-2008) in 1999, the on-budget surplus was 1.87 billion and in 2000, the on-budget surplus was 86.62 billion. Stick with the facts.

Each and every year of the Clinton presidency, the federal budget added billions to the national debt. Please explain how a balanced federal budget can have the federal government going into the red!

So SPINdividual claims in 1999 and 2000 the federal government has a balanced budget (actually a surplus!!!!!) based on some smoke and mirrors numbers from OMB yet the federal government spend 130 billion more than they received in 1999 and 17 billion more than they received in 2000.

So SPINdividual is claiming the budget was balanced even though the federal government spent tens of billions more than it took in.

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
To:	The Cold Hard Facts

In response to:
And I am not quilty (whatever that means).

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
Why do you continue to engage in speculation?

Individual, you are lying again. No speculation here, just The Cold Hard Facts

Name:	The Cold Hard Facts
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
I know right wingers cringe when facts are presented. But here goes another fact: Under Clinton, we had the first on-budget surplus since 1960.

In the year of this so-called "surplus", the federal government added 17 billion to the National Debt. How does the federal government take in more money than it needs yet by the end of the year the federal government had spent 17 billion MORE that is had taken in?

John Kerry's photograph is featured in the War Protestors Hall of the War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City

John Kerry is honored by the North Vietnamese Communists for helping bring about the defeat of the US.

Name:	Bertram Wellpoint
Re:	Inquiring minds want to know.

In response to:
Algore was a reporter in the military for only 18 months (this option is only offered to the sons of wealthy and powerful Senators). --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name:

Forum Fan

In response to:
John Kerry is honored by the North Vietnamese Communists for helping bring about the defeat of the US.

Message:
Look for a complete Left Wing media black-out of this subject. The Left Wing Propaganda Organization (formally called the main-stream media) is destroying our country.

Name:	Stoner (not the real one)
To:	Bertram Wellpoint

In response to:
What has become of what Al Gore WROTE during this period??

Message:
I am not sure he actually wrote anything. I think he was too stoned. Have you seen the pictures of Algore pointing his weapon at his head. Clearly he was stoned most of the time.

Name:	\Kirk had it in '98
To:	TCHF
Re:	Bush has ruined everything!

In response to:
Editor, you don't understand the term.

Message:
She understands it well enough, but she finds it convenient to misapply it.

Name:	Johnny Stash
To:	Stoner (not the real one)

In response to:
Have you seen the pictures of Algore pointing his weapon at his head

Name:	Lizard Frere
To:	Hillary Tool
Re:	Swaddled away in layer upon layer of finest Sea Island...

In response to:
You know you're quilty, otherwise you would have dropped it by now.

Message:
You're pretty damned quilty yourself, Miss. Not surprising, I suppose, for someone who lives in cotton batting!

Name:	Al Gore
To:	Individual
Re:	I was THERE! I was there longer than that FOP!

In response to:
Let's stick to the point. Bush's record in school is mediocre at best. Bush's record in the military is unbelievable for someone who supported the war

Message:
It was a dark and moonless night. I took a pull on my doob and stifled a cough, then my body stiffened! I could hear Charlie rustling in the elephant grass just beyond our perimeter! I pinched out my roach between my thumb and forefinger, opened my Olivetti, and exploded into action: typing furiously, pounding those keys like a madman, eyes on copy...

Name:

Mercy Moi lies EXPOSED!

In response to:
Al Gore was the VICE PRESIDENT OF THE USA, from 1992 until 2000, - serving 2 terms, with Clinton.

Al Gore was not Vice President of the THE USA for a single second in 1992 AND he was Vice President for the first weeks of 2001.

Name:	Taxpayer
To:	Individual

In response to:
I know right wingers cringe when facts are presented. But here goes another fact: Under Clinton, we had the first on-budget surplus since 1960.

Message:
Yes, taxes were incredibley exhorbitant. While some tax relief has been actualized, taxes remain outrageously high.

Name:

Mercy Moi lies EXPOSED!

In response to:
Al Gore was elected to the US Congress, House of Representatives in 1976, for 8 years.

Gore would have to be elected 4 times to be in the House of Representives for 8 years.

Name:	Al Gore
Re:	Firefight!

In response to:
I pinched out my roach between my thumb and forefinger, opened my Olivetti, and exploded into action: typing furiously, pounding those keys like a madman, eyes on copy... --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message:
...strafing Charlie with line after line of sizzling prose! My carriage return shreiked like a mashed mudhen as I ripped off line after blistering line, and the little bell was tinkling like an elevator floor-counter gone mad as I charged onward, heedless of the mayhem around me, laying down an ironclad, 8 X 8 case for environmental awareness and ecological sensitivity on both sides of the DMZ!! The sheets of paper quivered like live things as I pounded my concise and authoritative prose into their fibrous substance! The stacatto rat-tat-tat of my trusty Olivetti must have finally un-nerved Charlie, because soon, as I knew they must, they broke cover, dropped their weapons, and turned tail and ran!

Name:	Aegis
To:	Individual

In response to:
Let's stick to the point. Bush's record in school is mediocre at best. Bush's record in the military is unbelievable for someone who supported the war. It is unbelievable that someone would do virtually everything in his power (and other's power) to avoid combat when he supported the war. A commander-in-chief should be made of better stuff.

Message:
You have no point, Individual. You are nothing but a lying hack. How you do enjoy it though!

Name:	Individual
To:	Aegis

In response to:
You have no point, Individual. You are nothing but a lying hack. How you do enjoy it though!

Name:	Gooby
To:	16 KHz WAV (or RIFF) format files

Message:
Now back to that whole poor ppl thing.if u see a a poor person give them a dolla atleast..and if u see a poor person on the street instead of sayin like "y don't they get a damn job!" take them under ya wing and help them get one,help them get some food,some clothes,some shelter..its just like that one diana ross song "Reach Out And Touch Somebodys Hand" "if u see an old friend on the street and he's down remember his shoes could fit your feet".in other words if u see a poor person or a person in need and u jus dust it off and don't help em remeber u could wake up the next mornin and be in the same possission they in and need someones help.

Name:

Bush Is a Miracle!!!!!!!!

Message:
If someone had said in February 2003, that by June 2004, Saddam Hussein would have been removed from power and captured; that a diverse new government, including Shiites, Sunnis and Kurds, would be installed; that elections would be scheduled for January 2005; and that the liberation of a devastated country of 25 million in which everyone owns an AK-47 had been accomplished with an army of around 140,000 with a total casualty rate (including accidents and friendly fire) of around 800; that no oil fields had been set aflame; no WMDs had been used; no mass refugee crises had emerged; and no civil war had broken out... well, I think you would come to the conclusion that the war had been an extraordinary success. And you'd be right. Yes, there are enormous challenges; and yes, so much more could have been achieved without incompetence, infighting and occasional inhumanity. But it's worth acknowledging that, with a little perspective, our current gloom is over-blown. Stocks in Iraq have been way over-sold. I even regret some minor sells myself. Now watch the media do all it can to accentuate the negative.

Name:	jimmy
To:	magpie

Message:
I've decided to give up my life of studies, improvisation, and compulsive instigation. I've shaved my head, and decided to become a Zen Buddhist. Yes, that's right magpie. At one point in my life, I thought the world was a horrible place, where people die by the thousands every hour. Where plague overwhelms the poor, while the inane tyrannical grab hold of national currency with near Jewish hostility. You see, magpie, I've come to realize nobody has it as bad as you do. I mean, let's face it.

Name:	Siddhartha Gautama Jr.
To:	magpie

In response to:
You mustn't contradict Merci MOO. It makes her puppy growl. Odd, isn't it, how MOO fears to enter the Mormon Village, yet joyfully immerses herself into the much more restrictive and tyranical Socialist Village? She's on an evangelical brainwashing mission for Socialism, and in her enthusiastic dedication, she doesn't even seem to realize it! FREE MUMIA! HILLARY 04!!!!! 08 IS TOO LATE

Message:
What would they, or anybody else in this world, know about the cruelty in the world until they've walked a mile in your shoes, and had their parents claim their CD's were inappropriate? Geez, the nerve of them. Upon sobbing continuously for hours after reading your post, magpie, I've started to contem! plate assassinating my parents...and everyone else's too! Why? Because I don't care that, as a child, they bought my food, my clothes, my computer, and nearly half of my tuition. No, magpie, it doesn't matter. Because those bastards gave me hell when I listened to obscene music, too! They should die, shouldn't they?

Name:

Lord of Flies

Message:
So now i had managed to get into 2 accidents break my arm get a possesion ticket and it was only 6 o'clock! Once I got to the hospital it turns out my insurance had been cancelled! So i had a 900 or so doctors bill ahead of me. Finally on my way home on a bus i thought nothing more could happen. Well I was wrong this dirty old man sitting behind me decided it would be a good idea to lick my face! that's right he licked my face! Crazy old dirty man!! And that's it. So whats the point ...well to caution all you non-beleiver's! Watch out Friday the 13th is no joke!! And ban old people from driving and screw the police and get rid of the dumb deer and f*** the dirty old men! Thank you

Name:	Scotty
To:	No E mail Please

In response to:
Erotic Chat/Email/Phone Fantasies Backrubs/Massage 1-on-1 sex Oral Sex Anal Sex Discreet Relationship Swinging/Swapping Group sex(3 or more) Bondage & Discipline Cross-Dressing Roleplaying Exhibition & Voyeurism Sadism & Masochism Miscellaneous Fetishes Other "Alternative" Activities Serious Relationship

Name:	Sul Rost
To:	Hocus Pocus Dominocuss

In response to:
Some may remember my article where I said that we recruited retarded people from all over the world to serve in Iraq & other hostile zones, & then quoted Rumsfeld as explaining, "Well, we TRIED using US "Intelligence" to find the Enemy, & now we must go to Plan B."

Name:	Hocus Pocus Dominocus
To:	The Future We Doth Seek
Re:	Eenie Meenie Chili Beanie