One by one, our erstwhile allies are disowning us; they don't want an unstable, anti-Western Iraq any more than we do, but they have concluded that President Bush is incorrigible.

OP-ED COLUMNIST
The Wastrel Son

By PAUL KRUGMAN

Published: May 18, 2004

e was a stock character in 19th-century fiction: the wastrel son who runs up gambling debts in the belief that his wealthy family, concerned for its prestige, will have no choice but to pay off his creditors. In the novels such characters always come to a bad end. Either they bring ruin to their families, or they eventually find themselves disowned.

George Bush reminds me of those characters — and not just because of his early career, in which friends of the family repeatedly bailed out his failing business ventures. Now that he sits in the White House, he's still counting on other people to settle his debts — not to protect the reputation of his family, but to protect the reputation of the country.

One by one, our erstwhile allies are disowning us; they don't want an unstable, anti-Western Iraq any more than we do, but they have concluded that President Bush is incorrigible. Spain has washed its hands of our problems, Italy is edging toward the door, and Britain will join the rush for the exit soon enough, with or without Tony Blair.

At home, however, Mr. Bush's protectors are not yet ready to make the break.

Last week Mr. Bush asked Congress for yet more money for the "Iraq Freedom Fund" — $25 billion for starters, although Paul Wolfowitz, the deputy defense secretary, says that the bill for the full fiscal year will probably exceed $50 billion, and independent experts think even that is an underestimate. And you know what? He'll get it.

Before the war, officials refused to discuss costs, except to insist that they would be minimal. It was only after the shooting started, and Congress was in no position to balk, that the administration demanded $75 billion for the Iraq Freedom Fund.

Then, after declaring "mission accomplished" and pushing through a big tax cut — and after several months when administration officials played down the need for more funds — Mr. Bush told Congress that he needed an additional $87 billion. Assured that the situation in Iraq was steadily improving, and warned that American soldiers would suffer if the money wasn't forthcoming, Congress gave Mr. Bush another blank check.

Now Mr. Bush is back for more. Given this history, one might have expected him to show some contrition — to promise to change his ways and to offer at least a pretense that Congress would henceforth have some say in how money was spent.

But the tone of the cover letter Mr. Bush sent with last week's budget request can best be described as contemptuous: it's up to Congress to "ensure that our men and women in uniform continue to have the resources they need when they need them." This from an administration that, by rejecting warnings from military professionals, ensured that our men and women in uniform didn't have remotely enough resources to do the job.

The budget request itself was almost a caricature of the administration's "just trust us" approach to governing.

It ran to less than a page, with no supporting information. Of the $25 billion, $5 billion is purely a slush fund, to be used at the secretary of defense's discretion. The rest is allocated to specific branches of the military, but with the proviso that the administration can reallocate the money at will as long as it notifies the appropriate committees.

Senators are balking for the moment, but everyone knows that they'll give in, after demanding, at most, cosmetic changes. Once again, Mr. Bush has put Congress in a bind: it was his decision to put American forces in harm's way, but if members of Congress fail to give him the money he demands, he'll blame them for letting down the troops.

As long as political figures aren't willing to disown Mr. Bush's debt — the impossible situation in which he has placed America's soldiers — there isn't much they can do.

So how will it all end? The cries of "stay the course" are getting fainter, while the calls for a quick exit are growing. In other words, it seems increasingly likely that the nation will end up disowning Mr. Bush and his debts.

That will mean settling for an outcome in Iraq that, however we spin it, will look a lot like defeat — and the nation's prestige will be damaged by that outcome. But lost prestige is better than ruin. source...

Name:	UN Fan on ceiling
To:	UN saving SOBs* ('Fore ya accuse me)
Re:	Op/Ed on the UN spinmiester/coverup exert

In response to:
Who is Paul Bremmer? How can he have the power to cover up this MEGA-STINK OIL FOR MONEY United Nations scandal? Who does he love or who is paying him off? He's the coverup swell old buddy* now!

Message:
Op/Ed AIDING A U.N. COVER-UP New York Post - Wed May 19, 3:36 AM ET It looks like the investigation into the U.N. Oil for Food program — one of the biggest corruption scams in his tory — is being hindered by Paul Bremer and the Coalition Provisional Authority.

One could be forgiven for thinking that the detonation of two "improvised explosive devices" equipped with toxic chemical agents would be seen as confirmation that there are still Weapons of Mass Destruction (WMDs) in Iraq. These events might even be seen as rebuttals to those who have derided the Bush administration for its prior inability to substantiate pre-war claims that such weapons in Saddam’s hands constituted an intolerable threat to the United States.

Unfortunately, such thinking fails to appreciate a stand-by of Washington Beltway politics: "moving the goalposts." Whenever the opposing team comes close to proving its point, one simply relocates the end zone to a point out of reach.

Rarely has this phenomenon been more in evidence than with respect to Iraqi Weapons of Mass Destruction. Practically everyone – members of the Coalition’s intelligence services, the United Nations, even the French, Germans and Russians – recognized that, at one time, Saddam had chemical and biological weapons and a program for building nuclear devices. Since he never satisfactorily accounted for the complete destruction of the stocks of WMDs, like those he previously used in lethal attacks on Iran and his own Kurds, the only reasonable conclusion was that they continued to exist in some form, in unknown quantity.

To prove the point, one would seem to need only to have found a few chemical and/or biological weapons. Well, that would appear to have been the incontrovertible upshot of the two recent episodes, involving sarin and mustard gas weapons. Yet the goal-post-movers’ response has been that these do not – in and of themselves – confirm the claims that Saddam still had stockpiles of these sorts of WMDs.

UN inspectors – whose return to Iraq in 2002 was only made possible by President Bush’s determination to disarm Saddam, one way or the other – shed no more light on the question. That did not, however, keep tief Inspector Hans Blix from suggesting that there was no evidence Iraq still had active WMD programs.

To disprove this contention, it would seem sufficient to establish that chemical and biological production facilities continued to exist, perhaps in the form of advanced fertilizer or pharmaceutical plants which, thanks to the dual-use nature of their technologies, would allow them readily to be used for weapons purposes. And the Iraq Survey Group, a team of specialists that has been scouring Iraq since the fall of Baghdad trying to ferret out and secure Saddam’s WMDs, has confirmed that, while actual weapons have eluded them so far, the ancien regime did indeed have the ability to produce fresh batches of chemical and biological agents at will. Yet the skeptics choose to ignore the reality that, in the wrong hands, even small amounts of such toxic substances – precisely what could be manufactured in short order by this sort of stand-by production capability – could cause immense loss of life.

No less studiously ignored is evidence that has come to light that Saddam Hussein could, indeed, have handed Weapons of Mass Destruction to terrorists bent on employing them against the United States and its allies. As Charles Smith reminded us in Newsmax.com yesterday, "(F)ormer Clinton Defense Secretary William Cohen testified that in 1998 Saddam's top nerve gas experts met with several members of al-Qaeda in Baghdad."

Recent events underscore the danger such a combination represents. Smith notes that just a few weeks ago, a number of al-Qaeda operatives based in Iraq were caught before they were able to carry out a plot aimed at killing tens of thousands of Jordanians with poison gas. Evidently, the failure to perpetrate such an atrocity permits some to persist in the fantasy that this aspect of the WMD case against Saddam is still without foundation.

Whether partisan Democrats, antiwar zealots and rabid Bush-haters wish to admit it or not, Saddam Hussein is guilty as charged. We now know that Saddam once had significant quantities of Weapons of Mass Destruction and aspired to build more; he used them against his own people and his neighbors; and he persisted in violating nearly two-score UN Security Council resolutions – right up to the end of his days in power – by concealing his actual programs and capabilities.

It is now safe to conclude as well that Saddam bequeathed a frightening legacy to post-liberation Iraq: the Weapons of Mass Destruction still at large in Iraq. The alternative thesis – namely, that the only two WMDs left in the entire country were employed in the (fortunately) failed IED attacks involving sarin and mustard gas conducted in recent days – is preposterous on its face.

While we may still be in the dark as to where all of the remaining WMDs are – their specific condition and numbers – these attacks should serve indisputably to establish that there are at least some WMDs in-country and accessible to terrorists. Moreover, the Jordanian near-miss underscores the point that we should take no comfort from the fact that the status of such weapons is unknown, since some of them may wind up being used outside Iraq.

It is entirely understandable that those who opposed the war with Iraq and/or President Bush for launching it would try to make hay of the difficulty we have had to date locating quantities of WMDs that former chief inspector David Kay once said would fit in a two-car garage, while searching a country the size of France. Now that we have begun to find them the hard way, it behooves such critics to stop moving the goal-posts, to recognize the validity of Mr. Bush’s concerns and to throw their support behind the urgent effort to find and destroy such weapons – wherever they may be, including possibly in neighboring Syria – before any more of them are used against us...inside Iraq or outside.

Name:

HILLARY SUPPORTER

Message:
Clinton-Sponsored Special Education Bill Passes Senate 95-3

Washington, DC - Today, by a vote of 95 to 3, the Senate passed S. 1248, the Individuals with Disabilities Improvements Act of 2003. Senator Clinton was a co-sponsor of this comprehensive legislation to strengthen and improve special education in New York and around the country.

"This critical legislation will make a real difference in the lives of the more than 400,000 exceptional children in New York," said Senator Clinton.

"This legislation will ensure that teachers are better trained to help children with special needs succeed, involve parents more in the education of their children, strengthen monitoring and enforcement of the IDEA provisions, allow schools and parents to resolve disputes fairly and quickly, and help students with special needs make the transition from high school to life beyond," said Senator Clinton

S. 1248 includes several provisions championed by Senator Clinton. One will create a program to provide dedicated resources to help children with emotional and behavioral disabilities. This program will provide $25 million directly to schools, or coalitions of schools to enact "whole-school interventions." Research shows that children with behavioral and emotional problems do better when everyone from the school nurse to the superintendent have a clearer understanding of the child's needs. This provision was based on S. 1321, legislation that Senator Clinton introduced along with Senator Jeff Sessions, a Republican of Alabama.

Yesterday, during consideration of S. 1248, the Senate unanimously passed an amendment sponsored by Senator Clinton to improve research on the intersection between environmental factors and developmental disabilities. Senator Clinton's amendment will make the Department of Education a key player in the planning and implementation of the National Children's Study, the most comprehensive examination of children ever conducted in this country.

"Children spend more time in school than anywhere other than their homes. It was a massive oversight to leave the Department of Education out of this study in the first place and I am pleased that the Senate passed my amendment to correct this problem," said Senator Clinton.

The Senate rejected an amendment co-sponsored by Senator Clinton that would have provided the funding level promised in IDEA. This amendment, sponsored by Senator Tom Harkin (IA) and Chuck Hagel (NE), would have guaranteed that schools receive the funding they need instead of leaving the funding decision in the hands of the appropriations committee each year. The Senate rejected this amendment on a procedural motion by a vote of 54 to 41. The vote required 60 votes to pass.

Senator Clinton released a chart that shows how much New York State school districts would have received had the amendment co-sponsored by Senator Clinton passed. Senator Clinton is an original co-sponsor of legislation that would fully fund IDEA and she will continue to fight for this legislation in the future.

"We know that when we rely on authorization levels alone, children and taxpayers pay the price," said Senator Clinton. "This amendment had strong bi-partisan support and I am disappointed that it failed," she said.

Name:

Dem Spotting

Message:
My husband and I play, "Spot the Dems." The game began during the 1992 Democrat National Convention when the cameras panned the convention delegates. We became anthropologists studying a tribe. In the dozen years since, we have perfected our data base and skills. We can turn down the volume on the TV talking heads shows and identify the Dems. We can see an audience on a C-SPAN lecture or panel and determine topic and bent. We bat a thousand on any given night using time-tested rules for Dem-spotting:

Hollywood type (sans Charlton Heston, Kurt Russell, and, possibly, Tom Selleck): Dem

A wealthy man in the Phoenix area, upon hearing of our prowess, opined to me, "Your game isn't difficult. Dems are uglier than Republicans." Nay! Republicans have only Bo Derek, and her legendary "10" status cannot counterbalance all of Hollywood's Dem dames.

What gives Dems a different look is their countenance. They look miserable. Have we seen one picture of John Kerry from his 40 years in public life in which he didn't look to be in herniated disc pain? Does permanently imbedded shrapnel or medal-tossing elbow give him a face that looks less upbeat than stewed prunes? Indiscreet youth generally tolerates a smile or two, but Mr. Kerry has always had the facial joy of the Addams Family's Lurch. Buckingham Palace guards look as if they need Ritalin in comparison to Mr. Kerry. Even crossing his legs seems like an effort, perhaps from some union featherbedding rule in Massachusetts.

The Washington, D.C. March for Women's Lives (translation: March for Abortion) offers a veritable training ground for "Spot the Dems" acumen. Head to the official abortion Website, www.marchforwomen.org , and study. Note the men dressed as women, or women dressed as men. Or perhaps they are women transitioning to men or vice versa. There are many angry souls with provocative placards, one in the shape of a nude woman's body upon which "No Trespassing" is engraved. Another sign features a drawing of a talking sperm with the cartoon cloud, "Not every sperm needs a name."

The affable Howard Dean was there, invited for his barbaric yawp and proximity to snapping. Republicans don't scream. They raise money. Half-naked Goths opted not to carry signs, their bodies being already tattooed with messages. They also seem ready to snap.

The "Menopausal Women Nostalgic For Choice" look pretty much as described. Infants in strollers who were dragged along seemed to be saying, "Why me?" How could the carriers of a 6-feet tall uterus emblazoned with "Proud to Own My Own Uterus" look joyful?

The famous who led the cranky broads looked miserable. Susan Sarandon has never found a microphone into which she will not whine. Whoopi Goldberg brandished a coat hanger as she screeched. Gloria Allred, the nation's abortion group lawyer, seems perpetually irritated. Their cause is taking life. Not material that lifts the spirits or produces a smile.

Therein lies the secret to Dem dismay. Angst is their calling card. Psychotherapy their badge of honor. Dems are the no-no party. They spend a great deal of time telling people to shut up: speech codes on campuses, religion banishment (except Muslim studies) from the classroom, and layers of PC rules that have the rest of us quaking in our boots, or pumps, in the case of Republicans and transgenders.

Their activities are negative. They sue so that they can burn flags. They seek ousters for sexual harassment. They halt judicial appointments. They do not create. They are specialists in nay saying. Dems want to take your money away with higher taxes. Dems don't want vouchers and school choice. They don't want you to have your own doctor. They want state medical care.

Happiness is the key to undecided voters and those who cross party lines. When Dems and Republicans cross party lines, it is for happy people. Reagan had Reagan Democrats because he was so positive about everything, from America to complete recovery from cancer and bullet wounds. Kennedy had Republican voters because he looked happy, although we have since learned it largely drug-induced. He was positive about landing on the moon and joked about playing second fiddle to his wife in France. Clinton won in 1992 because Bob Dole seemed like a perpetually grumpy neighbor yelling at us to get off his grass, or, "Get off Bob Dole's grass."

Republicans, with the exception of Sen. Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania (and we're not entirely sure he is a Republican), and Bob Barr (former Ga. Rep.), look happy! Specter quite nearly lost the Senate primary in PA and Bob Barr no longer holds office. Sen. Zell Miller (D. Ga.) has lambasted his party in a book, is voting for Mr. Bush, and he looks and sounds happy.

Happiness is not just the key to a long life, it is the consummate clue in "Spot the Dems," and it may well determine the next election. Mrs. Heinz Kerry said it herself in a 20/20 interview, "[Laura Bush] looks fun." Yes, most Republicans do. She should prescribe it for Mr. Kerry.

Name:	Scroll Mouse
To:	Mercy Moi
Re:	Why's everybody always pickin on me?

In response to:
Well, I sighed a sigh of relief, after this exchange, knowing that our country's defense is in the hands of such good people. The CIA (criminally insane actions) and the FBI (famous but incompetent) teamed up with COL. UvTruth, and MAJOR Confusion and GENERAL Mayhem --- it just sorta makes you PROUD to be an American. Now I gotta interview two more guys: PRIVATE Areas, & CORPORAL Punishment. They should be along any minute. Stay tuned & Have a Nice Day.

Message:
Do you understand that posting stuff like this bolsters your lightning rod reputation? Please quit with the victim crap if you plan to continue drawing this kind of attention. You get what you give, Merci Moi.

Name:	Not an Islamofascist But Might Convert
To:	forum

In response to:
Heil Viet Nam Fatherland Front. Der Ferer ict proudenheimer!

Message:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- FAITH UNDER FIRE Christians sentenced for prayer, worship Imprisoned 2 to 3 years for Sunday meetings held at home -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posted: May 19, 2004 1:00 a.m. Eastern

Four Vietnamese Christians who organized and led weekly worship services in a house church were sentenced to prison for "disturbing public order."

The Christians, members of the heavily persecuted Hmong ethnic group, were handed terms of 26 to 36 months in late March 2004, according to a report released yesterday by the Center for Religious Freedom at Freedom House, a Washington, D.C. human-rights group.

The four are among 10 Christians reported last month to be in custody because of their faith.

They now are being held under harsh conditions, the Center for Religious Freedom said.

The men, arrested in November and December of 2003, were accused in connection with meetings of 50 or 60 people that took place over six consecutive Sundays, according to a document obtained by the center.

The arrests are part of a wave of anti-Christian persecution under way in the ethnic Hmong areas of Vietnam, the center reported.

The four are residents of Giap Trung Village, Thang Tin Commune, Ha Giang province, which has become the scene of an intense anti-Christian campaign by Vietnamese officials.

Ly Chin Sang, age 60, a Christian since 1991, sentenced to 36 months. His wife is Giang Thi Ca, and they have a 19-year-old son living at home.

Ly Sin Quang, 28, son of Ly Chin Sang, a Christian since 1991. He and his wife, Vang Thi Da, have four young children. [No length of sentence given.]

Vang Chin Sang, age 56, sentenced to 36 months and a Christian since 1999, is married to Ma Thi Pang. They have a 13-year-old son at home.

Vang My Ly, age 24, has been a Christian since 1991. He was sentenced to 26 months. His wife is Ma Thi Di and the couple has three small children.

The Washington-based group says letters from families describe the prisoners' hardships. Three additional letters written in March by Christians in Xin Man District, Ha Giang province, detail the confiscation of Vietnamese Bibles, an electronic keyboard, numerous personal effects and cash.

The authors also describe being threatened with fines unless they agree to abandon Christianity and reestablish an altar to their ancestors.

The Center for Religious Freedom says due to international pressure, Vietnamese authorities recently have begun to avoid referring to Christianity when making charges against believers, using the term "illegal religion" instead.

The government recognizes as legitimate only clans of Christians who were believers before the 1954 communist revolution.

The center reported earlier this month the Vietnamese military has used drug injections in Lai Chau Province in its campaign to pressure Hmong Christians to sign statements recanting their faith.

In November, the center reported the extradition of a key Hmong church leader, Ma Van Bay, from the southern province of Binh Phuoc. A trial in his case was announced for April 28, although the charges are not known.

Center director Nina Shea describes persecuted Hmong Christians as "truly forgotten people, living up in the highlands, speaking their own language, and lacking influential contacts in the outside world."

Hmong Christians, she says, "are twice victims, both as Christians and as members of a disfavored minority. Behind the friendly façade of normality that the Vietnamese government shows to investors and tourists lies a more sinister reality."

Vietnamese authorities allow a greater degree of religious freedom than in the 1990s, but the government still keeps all religious institutions in its control under the umbrella of the Communist Party's Fatherland Front. Members of unsanctioned groups – particularly minorities such as the Hmong – frequently suffer harassment, arrest and imprisonment, and the state-approved organizations face many restrictions, including limitations on training and ordination of clergy.

Other ethnic minorities facing persecution, according to human-rights groups, are Degar, Mien and Montagnard Christians. Members of the latter group, in the Central Highlands, have been executed by injection, say human-rights groups such as Britain's Jubilee Campaign.

Name:	Smedley
To:	Nellie Blye
Re:	Sources

Message:
Actually, Nellie, it is Kerry's job to show that he was in Cambodia, and your's if you support his claim, not ours to disprove an issue that was never first proved to begin with.

Name:	Smedley
To:	Hillary Supporter

In response to:
Clean Air Trust Joins Kerry, Jeffords, Other Senators vs. Illegal Bush Air Pollution Rule Change

Message:
Could you use a valid news source for once? Something less than a Kerry/Dem media schill that doesn't call something "illegal" before a court has ruled on the issue.

Name:	Smedley
To:	Hillary Supporter

In response to:
Click here to see a copy of the chart

Name:	Smedley
Re:	Paul Krugman

In response to:
He was a stock character in 19th-century fiction: the wastrel son who runs up gambling debts in the belief that his wealthy family, concerned for its prestige, will have no choice but to pay off his creditors. In the novels such characters always come to a bad end. Either they bring ruin to their families, or they eventually find themselves disowned....

Message:
Like ALL of the ankle-biters on the left, Krugman is tall on criticism, but short on proposing a single solution to anything.

God Bless George Bush, one of the few politicians willing to actually step up to the plate and solve America's problems.

Name:	Mercy Moi
To:	Scroll Mouse

In response to:
Do you understand that posting stuff like this bolsters your lightning rod reputation? Please quit with the victim crap if you plan to continue drawing this kind of attention. You get what you give, Merci Moi.

Message:
Hello Scroll Mouse: Did you really post all that stuff about Nick Berg the other day? (Dissimilar Photos, & all?)

Your moniker was used on top of that huge posting of the mystery surrounding Berg. Anyway, I wanted to thank you for posting the whole thing, with large font, & photos.

About the posting "Report from Iraq", which describes the situation of general chaos going on over there. That is called SATIRE. I am sure you have heard of it. And I do not consider it lightning rod to write humorous articles like so many world reknowned journalists have done for centuries. Humor is needed in this time, as ET says. And parody and satire are well recognized by the literate, to be high forms of humor. You may also note it is used on many TV shows, like Andy Rooney, Letterman, Jay Leno.

I know a federal officer who named the FBI (who he has lunch with twice a week) the "famous but incompetent". He has a great sense of humor for a Republican.

It is a shame most Republicans appear to have no sense of humor, unless they are making fun of Hillary or Kerry. And showing "high class" porno pix of Kerry's daughter.

I didn't notice anybody saying that posting porno stuff about Kerry's daughter, or Chelsea, was a Lightning Rod.

Name:	Froggy Vienners
To:	Fried Head Man ( He's with the TIMES, you know!)
Re:	Figures, don't it?

In response to:
One by one, our erstwhile allies are disowning us; they don't want an unstable, anti-Western Iraq

Message:
Actually, some of these "erstwhile allies" were more than content with The stable and flamboyantly pro-Western regime of PRESIDENT SADDAM HUSSEIN. So was the rotten, corrupt, murderous "United Nations".

Name:	Smarty Jones
To:	Merci Moi
Re:	A pissant and his addled tool...

In response to:
Your usual BS

Message:
You're full of crap, Merci Moi. You deserve John Kerry, and he deserves you. Americans deserve better.

Name:

Individual

In response to:
BusinessWeek Online. Kerry and Communion: The Real Issue. Wednesday May 19, 8:29 am ET. What are Catholics -- and all Americans -- to make of this increasing clerical activism in trying to shape their political decisions? The bad news is it shows that the Church -- for centuries no stranger to abuse of power, muddled priorities, and interfering where it shouldn't -- seems to be at it again.

Name:	Corporal Jellicoe's Jaliscso Donkey Taxi
To:	Merci MOO
Re:	More demented ravings from MOO & Cud.

In response to:
I know a federal officer who named the FBI (who he has lunch with twice a week) the "famous but incompetent". He has a great sense of humor for a Republican.

Message:
Screw off, MOO. I have lunch with the Joint Chiefs 7 days a week. I know more about Roswell than you will ever learn!

Name:	Rolli Herzog
To:	Individual, The Combat-dodging Fake Pastor's Assistant
Re:	I often went to Santa Anita with J.Edgar.

In response to:
The Federal Officer who named The FBI was a Papal stooge!

Message:
The Pope controls the entire Kennedy family directly from his palace in Rome. If it wasn't for the intervention of some brave Southern Baptists in Texas, the Pope would be in the Oval Office right now, and we'd all be speaking Latin.

Name:	Vicarious Vertigo
To:	Individual, The Religious Expert
Re:	Most runaways never make it past Salt Lake City.

In response to:
Holy Inquisition, Batman!

Message:
I saw Batman on TV this morning. He looks kinda rough. He was shilling for some scam. Sad.

Name:	Nellie Blye
To:	- Dem Spotting

In response to:
Dems look uglier, than Republicans,their countenance looks miserable or irritated. Republicans look & sound happy.

Message:
Gee, do I notice a teensy bit of "bias" in this woman's judgments? Like genetic DNA is somehow governed by the ballot box? HA HA Clearly this woman has a rather low IQ and should not be taken seriously.

Of course, it is much easier to look "happy" when you have just screwed the nation out of $$ millions of dollars and given it to all your friends. Or to know you have got majority control of Congress, whether by hook or by crook.

But watch the faces of those Enron & Halliburton CEO's on the Day of Judgment, (hopefully coming to a courthouse near you, in the near future). When they get fitted for those "chic" orange jumpsuits, they won't be too happy.

Also, Dems are a bit "serious" right now, as they are having to watch our nation on the skids, economy is not good, as millions of jobs go overseas, bankruptcies are on the rise, stock market is uncertain. I HOPE it all rises again, the sooner the better. But our national debt to finance a $4 BILLION a MONTH WAR that was unnecessary in the first place, & 700 lost lives, makes us a little mad.

Yep, if I was sitting in splendor, eating gourmet food served by a squadron of chefs, waiters, butlers, & had my own private valet, chauffeur & pilot --- all at taxpayer expense, --- and my pals all were jetting around the world with stolen pension funds from Democratic workers, plus all the other illegal insider trading, unbidded War contracts, etc -- I guess I could manage to grin ear to ear, too.

People who judge other people by Looks apparently never read the book "Beauty and the Beast", or heard the story of Quasimoto, or King Kong. ---- Many great & good people are not overly beautiful, and a few are downright ugly, but as we all should know: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And you often see what you WANT to see. I like the looks of Abraham Lincoln, (a Republican) but many said he was pitifully ugly, back in his day. Thank God, they did not elect him for his looks. But for his brains & ability.

Dem spotter probably thinks she is superior to all who she surveys in her dumb sport of "ridiculing" people on TV. If that is her most intellectual pursuit, we can use this to point out that Repubs do not practice Christianity much in their daily lives,-- but petty insults rule the day.

Name:	Smarty Jones
To:	Individual
Re:	Vanishing Point

In response to:
Most runaways never make it past Salt Lake City.

Message:
The desert arroyos and rocky clefts for miles around Salt Lake City are littered with their bleached bones. It's horrifying to look at these pitiful, yet macabre remains and see the human teeth-marks on them! Most of the long bones are horribly gnawed, and many of the skulls have been crudely trepanned. Dare we even wonder why??

Name:	Mr. Moto
To:	"Nellie Blye" WHO IS MERCI MOO!!
Re:	More pious pissantry from Merci Moi, the ever insulting and judgemental

In response to:
People who judge other people by Looks apparently never read the book "Beauty and the Beast", or heard the story of Quasimoto, or King Kong. ---- Many great & good people are not overly beautiful, and a few are downright ugly, but as we all should know: Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. And you often see what you WANT

Message:
Quasimoto my ass, MOO! Number one son not Quasi! He damn real boy! More real than you, you old poo-shooter!

Name:	Bystander
To:	Mercy Moi

In response to:
I didn't notice anybody saying that posting porno stuff about Kerry's daughter, or Chelsea, was a Lightning Rod.

Message:
What the HELL are you talking about? The pictures of Kerry's daughter and Chelsea were not "porn stuff". The picture of Kerry's daughter came from the main stream press. Although she did look like a crack whore, she actually posed for publicity pictures in that outfit. The picture of Chelsea was from a wet t-shirt contest she entered.

Name:	Thee American People
To:	SPINdividual

In response to:
Holy Inquisition, Batman!

John Kerry is claiming to be a member of the club because it seems he thinks that will get him more votes.

John Kerry blatantly violates the rules of the club and those that run the club have told Kerry he cannot participant in their “reindeer games” if he does not follow the rules.

Name:	Doom
To:	Merci Moi
Re:	Behave like a witless fool and you'll be treated like one.

In response to:
I didn't notice anybody saying that posting porno stuff about Kerry's daughter, or Chelsea, was a Lightning Rod.

Message:
You walk around virtually naked, exposing your shortcoming in one of the most public venues on earth, and see how much respect you get, Ms. MOO.

Name:

Dem Spotter

Message:
Also, Dems are a bit "serious" right now, as they are having to watch our nation on the skids, economy is not good, as millions of jobs go overseas, bankruptcies are on the rise, stock market is uncertain.

The economy is fine, the nations skids are being greased by Ted Kennedy, bankruptcies peaked during the Clinton years and the stock market is and always has been a gamble.

I HOPE it all rises again, the sooner the better. But our national debt to finance a $4 BILLION a MONTH WAR that was unnecessary in the first place, & 700 lost lives, makes us a little mad.

Then why does Terry McCauliffe look like he's having a never ending back spasm?

I think there should be some kind of affirmative action program for the many ugly dems, but the point of the article was their sour pusses that make the attractive dems ugly and the uglyt dems hideous.

Well hush my puppies! If you think they were petty insults, then they must be true.

Name:	Supporting Evidence PLEASE
To:	Nellie Blye

In response to:
Of course, it is much easier to look "happy" when you have just screwed the nation out of $$ millions of dollars and given it to all your friends.

The Justice department has already convicted many Enron big shots. Halliburton is currently not even under investigation (see Left Wing Bullsh!t)

Also, Dems are a bit "serious" right now, as they are having to watch our nation on the skids, economy is not good

That has been going on for well over 11 years. If Bill Clinton could not fix it in 8 years why should America than another lying Democrat could?

This is nothing new, we had record bankruptcies in the Clinton years. The Stock market is strong and has recovered from the Clinton/Gore recession.

The Democrats think they can win the White House with lies. Hopefully this time America will be smarter.

Name:	American
To:	Adults of Sound Mind Everywhere
Re:	Another Creepy Clinton Boondoggle

In response to:
Senator Clinton's amendment will make the Department of Education a key player in the planning and implementation of the National Children's Study, the most comprehensive examination of children ever conducted in this country.

Message:
Americans need to stand up to their out-of-control federal government and demand an end to this kind of crap.

Name:	The CATHOLIC VOICE
To:	speaking for the Vatican

In response to:
NO COMMUNION for Kerry -- He stated an Opinion which is against our OFFICIAL Policy, coming from the Clergy who practice Pedophilia for a Sacrament.

Only true anointed clergy, who routinely spank little boys butts behind the altar, to instill suitable discipline are allowed to take Communion. Dominus Vobiscum. AMEN.

As usual, the Catholic Voice attempts to manipulate the elections of the United States. We use the issue of abortion very successfully to do that. We have shifted from supporting Democrats (1960 JFK) to supporting Republicans for many years. A little Donation from the RNC is gratefully accepted by the Circle of Cardinals, for this.

Get out the vote for Bush, in any way possible. If we have to smear Kerry & toss him to the wolves, so be it. Our heavy RNC donations demand our total support.

Encourage voters to register Republican, & for Bush. If necessary, go to nursing homes and find senile old people who can not see, hear, or think, and register them to vote. Then hold their hand while they make an X on the ballot for Bush. Yes, grannie, that's right, now for doing this I will get you a cookie.

Nuns, who are not allowed a secular life, are now encouraged to go vote. Yes, we need to stuff the ballot boxes in favor of Bush. It does not matter that nuns are not allowed to study the issues or hear any TV that tells them world news. Only Motherhouse broadcasts are allowed.

In order to save money for the Vatican, the nuns are allowed on Social Security. What? We do not pay our nuns any salary? SH-h-h-h Do NOT tell the IRS that. WE tell the IRS that all our hundreds of nuns get a "salary" & then we put a few dollars into the SS Fund, (cooking the books) so that our Nuns can get Medicare & Social Security pension (even though it is all due to phoney ledger entries).

Remember, no Catholic Church should give communion to John Kerry, since he has a sinful opinion, that we do not agree with. BUT OUR HOLY CHARACTER IS INTACT INDEED.

Name:

Dem Spotter

Message:
She nedds this information so that she may drug into submission any of the little tykes who she thinks may be revulsed at the thought of entering her village.

Name:	Dr. Quasimoto "Smarty" Jones
To:	Dem Spotter
Re:	Doctors puzzled...unique case...utterly beyond the reach of Medicine...

In response to:
Then why does Terry McCauliffe look like he's having a never ending back spasm?

Message:
If your brain had inexplicably migrated down your spinal column and lodged in your colon, you'd have that pinch-faced McAuliffe look too!

Name:	Old Sparkplug
To:	Nellie MOO
Re:	Scurrilious Attacks

In response to:
Nuns, who are not allowed a secular life, are now encouraged to go vote. Yes, we need to stuff the ballot boxes in favor of Bush. It does not matter that nuns are not allowed to study the issues or hear any TV that tells them world news. Only Motherhouse broadcasts are allowed.

Message:
You'd be funnier than Saturdy Night Live has been in many years if you weren't such a vicious old LIAR.

Name:	People's Meter Monitor
To:	Merci Moo Channeling Nellie Blye via Nostradamnus

In response to:
In order to save money for the Vatican, the nuns are allowed on Social Security. What? We do not pay our nuns any salary? SH-h-h-h Do NOT tell the IRS that. WE tell the IRS that all our hundreds of nuns get a "salary" & then we put a few dollars into the SS Fund, (cooking the books) so that our Nuns can get Medicare & Social Security pension (even though it is all due to phoney ledger entries).

Message:
How often do you have lunch with His Holiness at those VA hospitals, Merci Moo? Do the Methodist bishops pick up the tab, or is is the Teamsters??

Name:

Supporting Evidence PLEASE

In response to:
DIRECTIVES FROM THE SACRED PULPIT OF BISHOP Chessman: As usual, the Catholic Voice attempts to manipulate the elections of the United States. We use the issue of abortion very successfully to do that. We have shifted from supporting Democrats (1960 JFK) to supporting Republicans for many years. A little Donation from the RNC is gratefully accepted by the Circle of Cardinals, for this.

Name:	Lifetime Dem
To:	Dem Spotter but don't get any on them
Re:	Let's compare

In response to:
Have we seen one picture of John Kerry from his 40 years in public life in which he didn't look to be in herniated disc pain? Does permanently imbedded shrapnel or medal-tossing elbow give him a face that looks less upbeat than stewed prunes? Indiscreet youth generally tolerates a smile or two, but Mr. Kerry has always had the facial joy of the Addams Family's Lurch.

Message:
At least Kerry is not an MBA from HAAAAVARD and Yale. He didn't suully his rep being a Texan and a power-limited Texas Governor for 8 years. He didn't smoke grapevine with the boys after the sock hop where some unknown band played 3 identifiable songs. Kerry never hung out in low places where the whisky drowns and the beer chases any blues away. Kerry didn't associate with those kind of people. He rode polo ponies and drank fone wine with people named Buffy and Edgar and Thorsten. He only inherited $2 million so he didn't have the luxury of pooping off money on pipe dreams. He served three months in Viet Nam and a doctor actually took shrapnel from one of his testicles. Tough guy Kerry turned down anesthesia. "No" he said, no drugs for me. I can take it, Doc!" The doctor had the metal out before Kerry could turn his head, cough, and say,"THANKS!" Kerry didn't run a team of loser has-been baseball players. He was elected in 1972 and has voted 7 times to keep Alaska's pristine 40 below zero tundra pure as the driven snow and oil derrick free. Alaskans will have to drill offshore to get that greasy, grimy, moose polluting crud while the 400 mile pipeline lies dormant.

Name:	Mortimer The Mortuary Scientist
To:	Merci Moi
Re:	Meat is DEAD! Call your local licensed mortician at once!

In response to:
Filthy Christian Freeloaders!

Message:
Call Senator Clinton right now and tell her to sponsor a bill to get those freeloading Christians out of our VA hospitals! They have their churches to take care of them. We don't want them siphoning off our money for those Methodist bishops and Papist mummers who are pro-Bush and pro-Cheney! Let Halliburton pay for them!

Name:

_The American People

Message:
Very few things are going well for the President right now. I think Bush is suffering through the worst period I have seen a president go through since 1974 but still Kerry is losing. If Kerry was a good candidate, he should be at least 10 points ahead of Bush. Kerry is still behind:

The latest Rasmussen Reports Presidential Tracking Poll shows President George W. Bush with 45% of the vote and Senator John F. Kerry earning 43%.

The only chance Kerry has is if this level of bad news for the President continues until next November which is all but impossible and even if that happens Kerry might not win. The Democrats are pulling a Dole this year. Bush will win not because Bush is so strong, but because Kerry is the worst candidate to run for president in a lifetime.

Name:	Birch Block Warden
To:	All
Re:	A truly frightful apparition!

In response to:
Meat is DEAD! Call your local licensed mortician at once!

Message:
If Merci MOO shows up on your doorstep with her scalpels, trocar, and her enema bag full of formalin, slam the door and lock it, then call the law if you value your life!

Name:

Huck Fillary

Message:
This is one good reason to hate that controlling busy body. The Department of Education has ruined public education in this country and she knows it. She would rather pander to the teacher unions and then spout off about the 'it's for the children' nonsense. Her little ugly lap dogs eat it up because they have been brainwashed to the extent that they cannot noticing bull droppings when they see, hear and smell it.

It's like that miserable health plan. It was a farce and stupid. When the opposition says that it is, she gets on this victim schtick about how the VRWC or the Republican attack machine is slandering her.

Hey Hillary! Grow the fuck up. Your idea was crappy! That's it! Lean to live with it without waving some goddamn bloody shirt around! You're supposed to be a strong woman! Start acting like it.

Name:	Mad-Onna
To:	The Cathlic Voice of Islam
Re:	1800 774-1338 , 602-453-0450

In response to:
NO COMMUNION for Kerry -- He stated an Opinion which is against our OFFICIAL Policy, coming from the Clergy who practice Pedophilia for a Sacrament. Only true anointed clergy, who routinely spank little boys butts behind the altar, to instill suitable discipline are allowed to take Communion. Dominus Vobiscum. AMEN.

Message:
There you go again. Making it up as you go along. The one giving communion turned Kerry down because of Kerry's well-known stand on abortion. Perhaps the voting records of SENATORS in general is why it is so very difficult for a senator to be elected POTUS. The senator's enemies have a field day kicking his groun over all his bad judgement and lack of morality. Voting to allow white people to continue to kill their babies for convienience is beyond a travesty...it is faunting SIN and immorality. You don't see the Reverend Jesse Jackson promoting abortion and you never will. You won't see American Indians promoting abortion (or firewater for that matter). Mexican-American and Puerto Rican-American candidates do not vote for abortion or promote it because they know their constituents will hate them for it. Everybody but whitey knows that killing the nation's future generation is immoral and bad for America.

Name:

Individual

In response to:
The Democrats think they can win the White House with lies. Hopefully this time America will be smarter.

Message:
Under Clinton, the stock market made so many all-time highs (sometimes, almost every week) that it was difficult to keep count. Under Bush, the we have had zero (I mean zero) all-time highs. Out of Bush's 3 1/4 years as president, the stock market has made yearly gains only once: 2003. What a great record.

"...I have said in this political climate, that I am ashamed of the behavior of people who call themselves either members of the Democratic Party (whose politics I usually support, incidentally) or as Liberals (funny, I always thought I was one). But, I will not hesitate to tell someone off. I believe in a form of politics that supercedes philosophical discussions. I believe in Pragmatism.

Pacifism is a beautiful word. No one wants war. Not you. Not I. But, the most passionate Pacifist is only relatively so. What I mean is, it's easy to be a Pacifist here in America. That's because Hussein and other menaces are far away. The closer a gun is pointed to your head, the less of a Pacifist you are...the more you're interested in stopping the guy pointing the gun to your head.

Granted. Saddam Hussein never pointed a gun to my head. I also never want to wait long enough for him to do so. PRE-EMPTIVE WAR is one of the realities we all have to face. There will never be another 9/11...and I could give a sh*t if there is or isn't a direct line to Hussein. He had to go. Period. That regime wouldn't think twice about giving an extremist a suitcase filled with a dirty bomb.

I am passionate about America. It has given me (and in my estimation, the world) everything I ever wanted... including the right to disagree, without winding up in a can of dog food. And, because of my passionate love of America, warts and all, I will stand up and defend her at the drop of a hat.

Is America always right? No. But for 100 years, it seems to me, it has gotten most of it right. The most powerful force the world has ever known is not conquering other countries. Previous world powers, had a colonial agenda. This included at various times in history: Rome, Greece, Nazi Germany, France, England, Communist Russia and Persia. There are more.

But, aside from the French complaining (don't they always?) about the influx of the AMERICAN CULTURE, I don't see America expanding its borders...All the countries in the world are free to rule themselves as they see fit...as long as they don't threaten anyone else.

..."America, love it or leave it?" I never subscribed to that ideal. It's actually UnAmerican. I DO believe in different opinions. But, I am also ashamed of any American especially, who gets up on stage in a different country to badmouth America, while American troops are dying in a desert country they would never want to live in.

...The war, for the most part is over. The British and the Aussies, (God bless em both,) amid a murky political situation, stood alongside Americans and did what had to be done.

I suggest anyone having a problem with this war go talk to the Iraqi's. Ask them if they prefer freedom (even at the price of, initially having what seems to be chaos), or if they prefer Saddam Hussein come back and reinstates the old ways.

And, after the war dies down, and people here in America go back to normalcy, there will be people who say that they are "non-violent." You don't want to get into fights. But, what that really means is, you don't want to pick on anybody.

Problem is, the bad guys don't always agree with you. You see, if you're against violence and some guy holds a gun to your head and asks you for your money, you better re-think your position. You better become VERY VIOLENT at that moment. Or, you're dead.

Being a Pacifist, is an ideal. I subscribe to it. I'm against violence. But, only CONCEPTUALLY, if you threaten my children, I wouldn't think twice about snapping your neck on the spot. I suspect most people would take my view.

You can tell by the length of this missive, that this issue has gotten under my skin. So, I'll try to recap my feelings, in brief. Get ready, 'cause here comes the truth:

Yes. I mean that. Yes, I know you live in another country and your country is cool, too. But, America is the only Superpower. There are no others. And that means, the world is a better place. Because if Nazi Germany or Communist Russia were the only superpowers, we would all be either dead or forced to live under their regimes.

America is not interested in ruling your country. If you think it does, smoking crack may be your answer.

I wasn't born here. But, I have a love for this country and its people that knows no bounds. I will forever be grateful to America for going into World War II, when it had nothing to gain, in a country that was far away...and rescued my Mother from the Nazi German Concentration Camps.

Name:

Individual lies EXPOSED!

In response to:
Under Bush, the we have had zero (I mean zero) all-time highs. Out of Bush's 3 1/4 years as president, the stock market has made yearly gains only once: 2003. What a great record.

Number one All-time high DOW one day gain: 3/16/01 - 499.19 points - President: Bush

Second highest all-time high DOW one day gain: 7/24/02 - 488.95 points - President: Bush

Third highest all-time high DOW one day gain: 4/05/01 - 402.63 points - President: Bush

Forth highest all-time high DOW one day gain: 4/18/01 - 399.10 points - President: Bush

Name:	Right Wing Pirahna #3
To:	Individual

In response to:
"...the stock market under Clinton..."

Message:
False profits and inflated stock prices were a legacy of the Clinton administration. Under the Clinton administration the SEC failed to examine the certified financial statements of ENRON, World.Com, TYCO and many others. The enduring legacy of the Clinton administration is nothing but smoke and mirrors!

Name:	Gene Simmons ROCKS!
To:	forum

In response to:
HMMMMMM We wonder if Democrats were bribed directly not just with free airline tickets and dancing girls and boys.

Message:
Tehran: 22:34 , 2004/05/18 Printable Version Saddam Confesses to Bribing Heads of State TEHRAN, May 18 (MNA) – Informed sources from Iraq said that Saddam Hussein has admitted bribing various heads of state and parties throughout the world. The Al Rafedin website from Iraq quoted sources close to the Pentagon as saying that so far the U.S. defense ministry has filmed 312 hours of Saddam’s confessions in his detention center. In the films Saddam has confessed killing more than 200 of his political opponents. The Pentagon sources have also expressed astonishment over Saddam’s ignorance about international issues and political affairs raising the question that who were the main rulers of Saddam’s regime over the past 25 years. The sources added that Saddam had demanded certain Arab personalities to simulate opposition toward his government in order to infiltrate among the real opponents of the Baath regime. HL/MS End MNA

Name:

Individual

In response to:
Wow, what I can say other than Gene Simmons, we salute you!

Message:
Although I agree with much of what he says, who gives a rats ass. He is a rock "star," I assume. Let's put these so-called rock stars in perspective:

I often tell my grandkids that the real superstar of music is and probably will always be Mozart. People like Bird, Desmond, and even Jerry Garcia at times and others, were definitely good and could improvise on a theme. But their improvisations amounted to a few minutes. Mozart's improvisations amounted to symphonies, parts of operas, complete concertos. A good thought experiment: Suppose we resurrected Mozart. We gave him a mansion, wine, women, etc. Suppose we then asked him to write some music in various "popular" forms (tin pan alley, pop, rock, etc.). We would play him the music that had been written, and after he had thrown up, we would tell him that we wanted some "tunes" like those. Well, in about a year, Mozart would have created more and better music in the "popular" genre than had been produced by all of the pop "artists" in history. That's how superior he is to all of the "musicians" of the 20th century.

Name:	Gulianni ROCKS
To:	forum
Re:	Why the attacks by Gorelick and others on him?

In response to:
Has Gullianni decided to run for Senator again? He knows they told him an offer he couldn't refuse.

Message:
Furthermore, if Gullianni steped out of the race because of prostate cancer, why would he marry a lovely and gracious young woman with such nice hair? Everybody knows that prostate extraction trashes one's sex life and often one's ability to hold water.

I forgot that Ms (I don't need no damn man) Gorelick really needs no reason or rationale to attack a noble, prestigeous, and honorable MAN.

Name:

Individual lies EXPOSED!

In response to:
Under Bush, the we have had zero (I mean zero) all-time highs.

Nasdaq Financial 100 - All-time high: 2708.38 Date: 3/5/2004 President: Bush

Nasdaq Transportation - All-time high: 1857.49 Date: 10/14/2003 President: Bush

All-time largest NASDAQ loss -355.46 points Date: 4/14/2000 President: Clinton

Second largest All-time NASDAQ loss -349.15 points Date: 4/03/2000 President: Clinton

Third largest All-time NASDAQ loss -286.25 points Date: 4/12/2000 President: Clinton

Forth largest All-time NASDAQ loss -258.25 points Date: 4/10/2000 President: Clinton

Fifth largest All-time NASDAQ loss -229.46 points Date: 4/04/2000 President: Clinton

Sixth largest All-time NASDAQ loss -200.61 points Date: 4/14/2000 President: Clinton

Seventh largest All-time NASDAQ loss -200.28 points Date: 5/10/2000 President: Clinton

Eighth largest All-time NASDAQ loss -199.66 points Date: 5/23/2000 President: Clinton

Ninth largest All-time NASDAQ loss -190.22 points Date: 10/25/2000 President: Clinton

Tenth largest All-time NASDAQ loss -189.22 points Date: 3/29/2000 President: Clinton

Name:

Bystnader

Message:
Bill Clinton presided over all of the top 10 worst NASDAQ losses.

Name:

Gulianni ROCKS

Message:
Although I agree with much of what he says, who gives a rats ass. He is a rock "star," I assume. Let's put these so-called rock stars in perspective: I often tell my grandkids that the real superstar of music is and probably will always be Mozart. People like Bird, Desmond, and even Jerry Garcia at times and others, were definitely good and could improvise on a theme. But their improvisations amounted to a few minutes. Mozart's improvisations amounted to symphonies, parts of operas, complete concertos. A good thought experiment: Suppose we resurrected Mozart. We gave him a mansion, wine, women, etc. Suppose we then asked him to write some music in various "popular" forms (tin pan alley, pop, rock, etc.). We would play him the music that had been written, and after he had thrown up, we would tell him that we wanted some "tunes" like those. Well, in about a year, Mozart would have created more and better music in the "popular" genre than had been produced by all of the pop "artists" in history. That's how superior he is to all of the "musicians" of the 20th century.

Name:

Why Johnny Can't LEAD

Message:
The New York Times reports that John Kerry was a bit of a loner in prep school:

Danny Barbiero, a middle-class boy from suburban Long Island who was Mr. Kerry's best friend, remembers how they made common cause in a boarding school full of Pillsburys, Peabodys, Pierponts and Pells. One day, Mr. Barbiero went to see a favorite teacher, the school's first black faculty member, and found someone else already there.

"I went into his apartment," recalled Mr. Barbiero, now an employee benefits consultant. "And he said, 'This is Johnny Kerry. He's just feeling a little out of sorts because he thinks people don't like him.' I said, 'Who cares what people think! You're obviously a terrific person.' "

The Times claims that "to a striking degree, the personal qualities that propel [Kerry]--and daunt him--are the same ones that buoyed and bedeviled him when he was 16." What strikes us, though, is that the teacher's comment so neatly encapsulates Kerry's foreign policy: "This is Johnny Kerry. He's just feeling a little out of sorts because he thinks the world doesn't like America."

Name:

Music Talks and Bullsh!t walks

In response to:
Although I agree with much of what he says, who gives a rats ass. He is a rock "star," I assume. Let's put these so-called rock stars in perspective: I often tell my grandkids that the real superstar of music is and probably will always be Mozart. People like Bird, Desmond, and even Jerry Garcia at times and others, were definitely good and could improvise on a theme. But their improvisations amounted to a few minutes. Mozart's improvisations amounted to symphonies, parts of operas, complete concertos. A good thought experiment: Suppose we resurrected Mozart. We gave him a mansion, wine, women ...

Name:

Teeblits

In response to:
And, if you have a problem with America, YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ME." Wow, what I can say other than Gene Simmons, we salute you

Message:
Something MUST be done to stop the insanity before everything we hold dear as a nation and as a civilized body of intelligent people is completely crushed out of existence. What it would be replaced with is more the beginning of a 1984'ish scenario than anything we've seen to date. Combine this sort of list with RFID technology and what happens then? I was "talking" online with a person from Uruguay who marveled at the lack of privacy in the United States as compared with her country. I'm not marveling....I'm damn scared.

Name:

Red

Message:
Why, when travelling, I often say I'm Canadian There's a REASON the world hates Americans. Rather than getting pissed at the Canadians, why don't we DO something about it?

Name:	Scotty Fan
To:	forum

In response to:
Then, after declaring "mission accomplished" and pushing through a big tax cut — and after several months when administration officials played down the need for more funds — Mr. Bush told Congress that he needed an additional $87 billion. Assured that the situation in Iraq was steadily improving, and warned that American soldiers would suffer if the money wasn't forthcoming, Congress gave Mr. Bush another blank check. Now Mr. Bush is back for more. Given this history, one might have expected him to show some contrition — to promise to change his ways and to offer at least a pretense that Co ...

Message:
So how does a tax cut plus historic spending and a huge rise in governmental red tape look for the future? Can you say voodoo economics? I knew you could. here we go again

Vote on gargantuan bill in Congress caps a year of stunning growth in government. WASHINGTON – President Bush and the Republican-led Congress are spending money at a rate not seen since World War II - and America's expanding war on terrorism isn't the main reason. Spending for national security, it is true, has surged due to the military effort in Iraq and stepped-up homeland security.

Name:	Scotty Fan
To:	Forum

In response to:
As long as political figures aren't willing to disown Mr. Bush's debt — the impossible situation in which he has placed America's soldiers — there isn't much they can do. So how will it all end? The cries of "stay the course" are getting fainter, while the calls for a quick exit are growing. In other words, it seems increasingly likely that the nation will end up disowning Mr. Bush and his debts.

Message:
This is a really great story that gets right down to the heart of the matter. Many Iraqis are speaking with their stomachs. People tend to get very angry when there is no food on the table. The idea that "we didn't like Saddam, but at least then we could eat" is quite relevant here. Perhaps the US should shift focus.

Name:

khobar

Message:
An antiquated sarin shell has exploded. Now those moaning Saddam-loving surrender monkeys will have to shut up.

Name:

khobar

Message:
Everyone now knows how chaotic the destruction of Iraq's armaments in the early 1990s was. Hans Blix was trying hard to sort out the details by interviewing those who took part in it, when his mission was aborted.

Name:

Why do Left Wingers lie so much

In response to:
Then, after declaring "mission accomplished"

Message:
Krugman is a liar! (What's new) Bush never declared "mission accomplished. Why do Left Wingers lie so much?

Name:

E Man Villa's

In response to:
It's like that miserable health plan. It was a farce and stupid. When the opposition says that it is, she gets on this victim schtick about how the VRWC or the Republican attack machine is slandering her. Hey Hillary! Grow the up. Your idea was crappy! That's it! Lean to live with it without waving some goddamn bloody shirt around! You're supposed to be a strong woman! Start acting like it.

Message:
Lie and cheat for political purposes to keep your job and keep America afraid and get a REWARD! Yes, that's right. "Overstate" (aka tell bald faced lies to draw attention to yourself and your "cause") and the Shrub might reward you with a promotion. How in the HELL are the American people supposed to react to this kind of blatant bull?

Name:

Why do Left Wingers lie so much

In response to:
This was not a functioning weapon.

After several months of bad news, the Bush administration has discovered the source of its problems. It turns out that it's not the Democrats, not really anyway. It's not Osama. It's not even Bill Clinton. No, the problem, it turns out, is the media.

Name:	TNT MAN
To:	Holeshot

Message:
The Times’ Editorial "Bullets Designed to Maim" exhibits ignorance of the role of firearms and deadly force in police work. The purpose of deadly force is not, as the editors seem to imply, to injure. It is to kill.

If a situation escalates to the point that an officer must fire his gun, he is trained only to shoot to kill. Police are also trained not to shoot if it would endanger a bystander. It is therefore immaterial to argue about the increased injury that hollow-point bullets could cause to suspects and bystanders. The 9mm full-metal-jacketed rounds police used to carry are notorious for not stopping in the first thing they hit, resulting in random ricochet hazards. There are also stories of drug-crazed criminals unimpeded by critical wounds from these bullets. Hollow-point rounds are not designed to maim, but to stop in their target and kill it.

Furthermore, the suggestion that target practice is the only prerequisite for successfully resolving an armed encounter shows disregard for the ambiguity and confusion that prevail in real-world confrontations, not to mention the tremendous pressure on an officer to ensure the safety of himself and the innocent public.

Name:	Nancy Salvato
Re:	Liberalism Is Jousting With Windmills

Message:
Nancy Salvato It’s a common trait of every generation to wax nostalgia about the way things were. Just last week my husband and I were pouring over a website called Tick Tock Toys-Archives and Galleries, a cavalcade of images and ideas http://theimaginaryworld.com/page4.html . We were having a lot of fun remembering Libby’s Fruit Float, Wacky Packs, Space Food Sticks, Frito Bandito erasers, and…well, I could go on and on.

For us, the 1970’s was a good time to be a kid growing up. We could walk outside at any given moment and find other kids who wanted to play. We’d be out all summer digging in sandboxes, building forts, and playing Running Bases. We’d spend whole afternoons at the pool diving into the water, playing Marco Polo, and doing underwater handstands until we had to come up for air. Evenings would slip into darkness as we ran around playing Flashlight Tag. Our socializing was only interrupted by the ringing of the dinner bell, and after eating with the family we’d be right back with our friends riding bikes, shooting baskets, and playing Hide N Seek,

Who could have imagined that today’s kids would have to arrange play dates and join organized sports in order to get together and have fun? Who would have thought that short cuts would have to be abandoned because child molesters would have the right, sanctioned by our courts, to be our neighbors?

Our society is changing and not all of the changes are for the better. Don’t get me wrong, there have been amazing technological advances of which I am the first to take advantage, but I’m not talking about this kind of difference. In an article Common Sense vs Experts, the author, Walter Williams, raises some concerns with which I concur.

He points out that before “there were hoards of school administrators, consultants and educational research spending”…kids who graduated from high school had a much higher achievement level than today. There's one estimate that a 1947 high school diploma was equivalent to today's college degree.”1

He remembers, “Before experts like Dr. Spock told us not to spank kids, kids didn't curse, shoot and rape teachers or fellow students.” And he recalls that it was only “after allowing experts to handle sex education” that teen promiscuity became pervasive leading to “record rates of teen pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.”2

Experts decided, “Criminals were really victims of poverty, discrimination and broken homes. Instead of punishing them "with incarceration and execution”, they suggested trying, “rehabilitation, group counseling, probation and parole.” Yet, “every category of crime skyrocketed.”3

Wardens with degrees in Social Work tried out their theories of how criminals should be handled. The result was, “more prison riots and more guards and prisoners assaulted and murdered. Prison rape and sodomy are rife.” Now some prisons issue condoms to inmates “as a means to fight the spread of venereal disease.” 4

Experts said it was unfair that welfare recipients could not have "luxuries" such as a telephone, television, car and vacations. Welfare workers monitored recipients, sometimes unannounced. If you could afford those things you didn't belong on welfare. Today, people are entitled to welfare and to have children they can't afford. There is no stigma attached to welfare. Welfare has become a way of life.5

Mr. Williams opines that, “Society was far more civilized before (experts) took over our schools, prisons, welfare programs, police departments and courts.” 6

Benjamin Disraeli, back in 1872, gave voice to the following idea. “The tone and tendency of liberalism...is to attack the institutions of the country under the name of reform and to make war on the manners and customs of the people under the pretext of progress”.7 This indicates that Disraeli was ahead of his time in understanding that “Political Correctness” (PC) would make a mockery of our values and conventions.

If our society could turn back time, we could stop “Political Correctness” at its roots before it could tear apart our culture. What would be the correct way to forge ahead?

First, we need our childhoods back. Childhood is especially important because when we’re young we use our imaginations and act out adult behaviors when we “play” different rolls or scenarios. This is critical to our development because we learn empathy and understanding. Adult ideas of right and wrong are reinforced when “playing by the rules” in our games. At some point we stop these games of “make believe” when we’re old enough to take responsibility for our actions. We use our knowledge and experience to take on our real roles in society and become grown ups.

Society needs rules of morality and civil conduct; we have to be able to trust and get along with one another. According to Steven Yates, these rules are being replaced by a type of fascism, “exemplified in political correctness”8 which is trying to control our thinking through propaganda, “euphemism, and Orwellian subterfuge. Intolerance becomes tolerance, ideological conformity becomes diversity or inclusiveness, and perversion becomes an alternative lifestyle choice.”9

Furthermore, Yates believes that, “Liberalism is the ideology most responsible for abandoning the rules that must be in place if a society is to survive in the long run.” The politics espoused by liberalists embrace the notion of entitlement and have destroyed education, undermined our military capabilities, infiltrated businesses, and became a major source of income for lawyers.10

He hits the nail on the head when he says that, “Entire generations can lose sight of what actually sustains their world if they grow up privileged and overprotected.”11 I know he’s right because I had a very comfortable upbringing. I had a good education. And I identified as a liberal when I was in college and old enough to vote. I wanted to save the world.

I was a liberal during my first marriage when I spent more money than I contributed to our joint income. I still wanted to save the world. But after a divorce, I realized that it was up to me to do the caretaking. I actually had to grow up and rely on my income from teaching to survive with any level of comfort.

Now I am a Conservative. In my job I’ve had to deal with PC in the school system and I see first hand how it doesn’t work. My eyes were opened to the “real world”. I still want to save it, but differently. As I grew older I discovered that liberalism is for those who never grow up. I completely agree with Yates that “liberalism really is an ideology of let’s pretend.”12

Liberals pretend that Gun control will make our streets safer; that Affirmative Action programs really help blacks by lowering standards, and don’t discriminate in reverse against white men; and that men and women are interchangeable in combat situations.13

When children pretend, no one is affected on a grand scale. This is when mistakes can be made and experimenting is appropriate. Grown ups need to think through the long term results of their actions before they act on them. Conservatives ask themselves how our lives will be affected in the long run before they sign ideas into law. They are not impulsive, thus the name Conservative.

Conservatives question popular notions. In the real world, are government schools better at raising civilized children than their parents? Shouldn’t we save the institution of family? When children become teenagers, should we give them condoms to protect them from pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases? Wouldn’t abstinence make more sense? Will AIDS be cured by more Federal funds? Wouldn’t monogamy be a better choice? Is a stable marriage between one man and one woman really just one of many options? What is the definition of marriage? Do women have a Constitutional right to kill their unborn babies if they become inconvenient? When does life begin? 14

The liberal politics which evolve from PC or Let’s Pretend are what will destroy our society. Conservatives realize we cannot continue to pretend anymore. We have to see things as they are. The survival of our society depends on understanding that morality is not subjective and personal. What is real is that we need to protect our Constitution and acknowledge that it is based on Judeo-Christian values. We need to take responsibility for our actions and ourselves. We need to behave with civility. We need to be Conservatives.

8 Doctrinaire Liberalism: The ideology of Let’s Pretend http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig/yates7.html

Name:	^**^
Re:	Why do Left Wingers lie so much

Message:
Is that all you know how to say?

Name:	Why do Left Wingers lie so much
To:	Scotty Fan

In response to:
The White House whine: 'It's all the media's fault'

Message:
No, it is simply another Left Wing Lie. Bush never declared "mission accomplished"

Name:	^^
To:	^**^
Re:	Why Do Leftwingers Lie So Much?

In response to:
Is that all you know how to say?

Name:

The wisdom of Heinlein

Message:
"Political tags - such as royalist, communist, democrat, populist, fascist, liberal, conservative, and so forth - are never basic criteria. The human race divides politically into those who want people to be controlled and those who have no such desire. The former are idealists acting from highest motives for the greatest good of the greatest number. The latter are surely curmudgeons, suspicious and lacking in altruism. But they are more comfortable neighbors than the other sort."

Name:	Why do Left Wingers lie so much
To:	^**^

In response to:
Is that all you know how to say?

Message:
No. Each time I see a Left Winger lying, I ask the question. This happens very frequently.

Name:

Grok

Message:
For those who prefer frame construction over full log, we offer log siding. It is made of red cedar and is milled to match the profile of our full logs to retain the authentic log style. Log corners can be added to make the exterior of a log sided home indistinguishable from full log. Log siding can be installed on a new home, or it can be used to re-side an existing home. We can install log siding on homes within a six hour drive of our home base near Rockville, Missouri. For locations farther away, we sell siding for self-installation or installation by your own contractor. We are also building a referral list of siding contractors who may be working in your area. Please contact us for a referral.

The color of cedar ranges from red-violet to red-orange when fresh. It soon begins to fade to light yellow-brown and eventually to gray. Although it is very resistant to rot, we recommend applying an exterior grade sealer to the exterior surfaces when it has reached the desired shade of color. This will prolong its weather resistance to the greatest possible number of years.

The siding profiles available are: round, flat, and ship lap. All of our log siding can be used for interior or exterior uses, and can be used for new constructi on or re-siding existing homes.

We do not keep large quantities of log siding in stock. We prefer to mill the siding for you after you order. Delivery time will vary from 6 to 10 weeks, depending on supply. Unless you pick it up yourself, we will add shipping & handling charges. Please call for shipping & handling info. We accept online payments through PayPal. If you have never used PayPal before, it's easy! Just click "buy now" and you will be asked your name, address, credit card information, etc. It's fast, free, and secure!

Ex-president Bill Clinton, who made famous the phrase, "it depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is," is being honored by The American Academy of Arts and Letters in New York City today for his "standard of correct utterance in the use of language."

"He was selected because they admired how he was apparently always able to get up before an audience without notes and speak eloquently with full sentences that even had semicolons," the Academy's Virginia Dajani told the New York Sun.

The academy last bestowed its "spoken language" award five years ago on former New York Governor Mario Cuomo, whose keynote address to the 1984 Democratic convention turned him into a presidential contender.

"No one had ever described the problems of government . . . more clearly than [Clinton] had," said Mr. Cuomo, whom Mr. Clinton once eloquently described as "acting like a major mafiosi."

In anticipation of Mr. Clinton's latest honor, the paper surveyed New Yorkers in downtown Manhattan on what they recalled as his most memorable oratory.

The phrases most often cited, the paper said, included such Clinton classics as, "I did not have sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky" and "I didn't inhale."

Name:

Message:
I heard the Ten Commandments display was removed recently from the Alabama Supreme Court building. You have to understand. Posting "Thou Shalt Not Steal" in a building full of lawyers and politicians would create a totally hostile work environment.

Name:	Scotty
To:	forum

In response to:
Bush should EO removal of all taxes from gas

Message:
Do any of you guys remember that back in September 2000, Tony Blair's increase in British tax on gasoline ended up nearly costing him his job?

It started at a Shell refinery, when a few farmers blockaded a distribution depot, stopping tanker drivers from leaving with their fuel deliveries. Within a few days it had spread to every refinery in the UK, with massive blockades by truckers and farmers.

I live in England near where it started. What was really interesting was that all the service stations totally ran out of fuel within a day or two - the oil companies hold very little stocks on their retail sites. Those few stations that managed to find a supply had massive lines of cars, like a third world country.

The rumor at the time was that the oil companies did not try too hard to break the blockade - it was in their interests for the government to back off the taxes.

Britain just ground to a halt - any modern economy is always on a knife edge of interdependencies, and it doesn't take much to break it.

In the end it hasn't stopped the high taxation of fuel, but it was very clear to Tony Blair that he has to be careful not to step over the limit that people will accept.

Name:	Point Man
To:	Paste

In response to:
drivers from leaving with their fuel deliveries. Within a few days it had spread to every refinery in the UK, with massive blockades by truckers and farmers

Keep in mind, UK is 80% socialist, US only 25%.

"Blockade" is basically kidnapping property. It's illegal, certainly HIGHLY immoral.

Learn to deal with the market. Might does not make right.

And learn to drive on the right side of the road.

Beer is what, $6.40 per gallon (using 12ozs cans). Why does no one about that?

Name:

Message:
If you use exactly the same number of gallons of gas today as in 1979, then you spend less on gas as a % of your income today than you did then. It's a fact.

Name:	Red White and Blue American
Re:	Royal Dutch Shell

In response to:
I live in England near where it started.

Message:
What started? The failing empire where the inbred autocrats sliced up the Middle East like a Key Lime pie which led to the current morass? Gee Thanks. Now go back to your blood pudding and jellied eels and shut up.

Firearms group warns of 'gun grabbing' bill But Pennsylvania official says legislation actually expands owners' rights

A bill pending in the Pennsylvania House of Representatives meant to clarify the rules law enforcement follows when enforcing a "protection from abuse" order, or PFA, has a leading gun-rights organization crying foul, while a Republican official defends the proposal as having the blessing of the National Rife Association.

The legislation, House Bill 2403, redefines the definition of a "dating relationship" and sets out provisions for how and when the subject of a PFA order must relinquish his or her firearms. PFAs are issued when a judge believes an alleged victim of domestic abuse is in danger.

Gun Owners of America, or GOA, has warned its members about the bill, which was passed out of the House Judiciary Committee unanimously May 10.

If an order is secured under the bill, the gun-rights organization says, "You have 24 hours to turn in all your guns and no immediate right to appeal. Furthermore, it is a crime for you to transfer your guns to a neighbor for safekeeping, and you are required to reimburse the state for taking your guns away!"

Continued the group in a statement: "In the name of 'political correctness,' this bill would allow an 'ex parte' (one party 'star chamber') protective order to be entered against you by anyone in a 'dating relationship' with you (sections 6108 (a) (7) (i) (A) and 6102)."

Comparing the plan to something out of Nazi Germany, the group decries the bill's power to strip Pennsylvanians of their firearms and urges members in the state to contact their representatives urging a "no" vote.

"You don't have to violate the court's order to be sent away to prison for six months," the statement continued. "If you just 'engage in a pattern or practice that [the court finds] indicates continued risk of harm,' you can be imprisoned for up to six months. And you are explicitly prohibited from receiving a jury trial before being sent to jail (section 6113.1(b) (3)).

"Even in the Orwellian world of leftist feminism, where legislators do what they're told to do by the politically correct, the lack of fundamental due process embodied in this legislation is breathtaking."

According to Michael Schwoyer, chief counsel to the Pennsylvania House Judiciary Committee, however, the gun-rights group has gone off half-cocked.

"This bill is not anti-gun at all," Schwoyer told WND. "It's anti-domestic abuse."

He says part of the bill actually softens regulations under current federal law regarding when firearms owned by the subject of a PFA are relinquished.

"We don't go as far as the feds do" when it comes to when guns must be relinquished, Schwoyer says. The Pennsylvania law requires a 24-hour wait after the order goes into effect, whereas federal law enforcement can take away firearms immediately.

The attorney also defended the expansion of the definition of a "dating relationship" in the bill.

"The committee felt that if someone was in a dating relationship and they're being abused, they should be afforded the opportunity to request that the court enter an order providing them protection," Schwoyer said, "whether or not they have been intimate, which is what current Pennsylvania law requires."

In other words, the bill would not require the person seeking protection from stating that he or she was having sex with the alleged abuser.

"The bill would allow the judge to determine if the victim needed protection without focusing on whether there was a sexual relationship between the parties," he said.

Schwoyer said the "ex parte" aspect of the bill is already in state law and that the bill actually makes changes to the procedure to expand defendants' rights.

He says "at the request of gun owners," the bill was changed to make the length of time from the initial ex parte order to a hearing 10 business days instead of just 10 days to give gun owners more time if they want to transfer guns from their ownership.

Schwoyer claims the bill tries to save gun owners money by giving defendants the option of turning firearms over to a licensed gun dealer in lieu of turning them over to law enforcement, and he emphasizes not all PFAs have a firearm-relinquishment aspect to them.

Rebutting GOA's contention the bill takes a way due process, Schwoyer said, "There are no due-process violations in this bill. The only changes to procedures over current law actually all provide additional safeguards to the defendant."

The attorney says the bill was introduced at the request of law-enforcement officials because there was confusion about how to execute Protection from Abuse orders.

When asked about what gun-rights groups the bill's sponsors have worked with, Schwoyer replied, "We've specifically worked with the NRA. The NRA does not oppose this legislation," adding that GOA "thinks the NRA is weak."

He says many of the e-mail legislators have received have come from a website called packing.org.

Schwoyer, who is under the employ of the House Republican Caucus, was not sure when the bill would be voted on by the full House of Representatives.

Name:	B.Black Bad
To:	Individul Honky Foo
Re:	Muzark

In response to:
Well, in about a year, Mozart would have created more and better music in the "popular" genre than had been produced by all of the pop "artists" in history. That's how superior he is to all of the "musicians" of the 20th century.

Message:
That fool couldt'nt Rap nohow. He wasn't nuTtin' but a dead white hOnky fOOl with a frizzy head full of rinky tinkly melodies 'bout rich little proper white ladies with big hair and they laigs stuck tight together. No rhythm and no Soul. No funk. No rhyme. No beat. No heat. DeaD whiTe mEat. AIn't nO tReaT. MakE my buTt squEak. tAke a PEEk if You darE 'caUse I aiN't SquarE, You know where I'm comin' from white raciss honky bitch? Y'know whEre I'm At?

Name:

Individual

In response to:
Keep in mind, UK is 80% socialist, US only 25%.

Message:
I'd say closer to 50% or even higher. Why? Because when you add up all of the taxes the top bracket pays (when it pays), it is above 50%. The Average Joe pays a lot of taxes also, many of which are hidden.

Name:	Fur Trader
To:	Scotty

Message:
Remember the old saying, sometimes attributed to Albert Einstein: "I don't know who will win World War 3, but I do know that World War 4 will be fought with clubs and spears."

Well, guess what. We may not know who will win the present conflict between terrorists and civilized societies. But if the Islamic fundamentalists succeed in their goal of imposing their "way of life" on the rest of the world, here's a hint of what the conflict after that, will be.

Can you believe that these gay advocates genuinely thought the so-called "Palestinian" protestors, were actually interested in the rights of Palestinian people?

(London) Members of two British gay rights groups were attacked when they attempted to participate in a demonstration for Palestinian rights.

OutRage and Queer Youth Alliance went to the protest march at Trafalgar Square to show their support for people of Palestine. But they also urged the Palestinian Authority to halt the arrest, torture and murder of homosexuals.

As soon as they arrived at the square to members of the two groups were surrounded by an angry, screaming mob of Islamic fundamentalists, Anglican clergymen, members of the Socialist Workers Party, the Stop the War Coalition, and officials from the protest organizers, the Palestine Solidarity Campaign (PSC).

They variously attacked the gay activists as “racists”, “Zionists”, “CIA and MI5 agents”, “supporters of the Sharon government” and accused the gays of “dividing the Free Palestine movement”.

PSC organisers asked the gay activists to “stand at the back of the demonstration”, and when they refused blocked their placards with their own banners and shouted down the gay campaigners as they tried to speak to journalists and other protesters.

Most people at the Palestine protest expressed no hostility towards OutRage! and the Queer Youth Alliance. Some expressed positive support.

In the end, the gay groups were allowed to march in the demonstration. The two groups carried placards reading: "Israel: stop persecuting Palestine! Palestine: stop persecuting queers!"

”We call on the PLO and Palestinian Authority to condemn homophobia, uphold queer human rights, and to order an immediate end to the abuse of and gay Palestinians", said OutRage! protester, Brett Lock.

"Having experienced the pain of homophobia, we deplore the suffering inflicted on Palestinians by the Israeli government”.

Another protester, Peter Tatchell, said: "Gay Palestinians live in fear of arrest, detention without trial, torture and execution at the hands of Palestinian police and security services. They also risk abduction and so-called honor killing by vengeful family members and vigilante mobs, as well as punishment beatings