Do we have any chance of succeeding at regime change in Iraq without regime change here at home?

OP-ED COLUMNIST

Dancing Alone

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

t is time to ask this question: Do we have any chance of succeeding at regime change in Iraq without regime change here at home?

"Hey, Friedman, why are you bringing politics into this all of a sudden? You're the guy who always said that producing a decent outcome in Iraq was of such overriding importance to the country that it had to be kept above politics."

Yes, that's true. I still believe that. My mistake was thinking that the Bush team believed it, too. I thought the administration would have to do the right things in Iraq — from prewar planning and putting in enough troops to dismissing the secretary of defense for incompetence — because surely this was the most important thing for the president and the country.

But I was wrong. There is something even more important to the Bush crowd than getting Iraq right, and that's getting re-elected and staying loyal to the conservative base to do so.

It has always been more important for the Bush folks to defeat liberals at home than Baathists abroad. That's why they spent more time studying U.S. polls than Iraqi history. That is why, I'll bet, Karl Rove has had more sway over this war than Assistant Secretary of State for Near Eastern Affairs Bill Burns. Mr. Burns knew only what would play in the Middle East. Mr. Rove knew what would play in the Middle West.

I admit, I'm a little slow. Because I tried to think about something as deadly serious as Iraq, and the post- 9/11 world, in a nonpartisan fashion — as Joe Biden, John McCain and Lugar did — I assumed the Bush officials were doing the same. I was wrong. They were always so slow to change course because confronting their mistakes didn't just involve confronting reality, but their own politics.

Why, in the face of rampant looting in the war's aftermath, which dug us into such a deep and costly hole, wouldn't Mr. Rumsfeld put more troops into Iraq? Politics.

First of all, Rummy wanted to crush once and for all the Powell doctrine, which says you fight a war like this only with overwhelming force.

I know this is hard to believe, but the Pentagon crew hated Colin Powell, and wanted to see him humiliated 10 times more than Saddam. Second, Rummy wanted to prove to all those U.S. generals whose Army he was intent on downsizing that a small, mobile, high-tech force was all you needed today to take over a country. Third, the White House always knew this was a war of choice — its choice — so it made sure that average Americans never had to pay any price or bear any burden. Thus, it couldn't call up too many reservists, let alone have a draft. Yes, there was a contradiction between the Bush war on taxes and the Bush war on terrorism. But it was resolved: the Bush team decided to lower taxes rather than raise troop levels.

Why, in the face of the Abu Ghraib travesty, wouldn't the administration make some uniquely American gesture? Because these folks have no clue how to export hope. They would never think of saying, "Let's close this prison immediately and reopen it in a month as the Abu Ghraib Technical College for Computer Training — with all the equipment donated by Dell, H.P. and Microsoft."

Why didn't the administration ever use 9/11 as a spur to launch a Manhattan project for energy independence and conservation, so we could break out of our addiction to crude oil, slowly disengage from this region and speak truth to fundamentalist regimes, such as Saudi Arabia? (Addicts never tell the truth to their pushers.) Because that might have required a gas tax or a confrontation with the administration's oil moneymen. Why did the administration always — rightly — bash Yasir Arafat, but never lift a finger or utter a word to stop Ariel Sharon's massive building of illegal settlements in the West Bank? Because while that might have earned America credibility in the Middle East, it might have cost the Bush campaign Jewish votes in Florida.

And, of course, why did the president praise Mr. Rumsfeld rather than fire him? Because Karl Rove says to hold the conservative base, you must always appear to be strong, decisive and loyal. It is more important that the president appear to be true to his team than that America appear to be true to its principles. (Here's the new Rummy Defense: "I am accountable. But the little guys were responsible. I was just giving orders.")

Add it all up, and you see how we got so off track in Iraq, why we are dancing alone in the world — and why our president, who has a strong moral vision, has no moral influence
source...

Name:	Bill Clinton
To:	All
Re:	Rummy

In response to:
Rummy wanted to prove to all those U.S. generals whose Army he was intent on downsizing that a small, mobile, high-tech force was all you needed today to take over a country.

Message:
Hey! that Rummy's just a dummy. When I was in there, I didn't need hardly no troops at all to get Old Slobo! Didn't hardly need no troops in S'mawlya, neither! No troops in the Soo-dan. Course, I did need a just a few good men down there at Waco...

Name:	Spooker
To:	Bubba Clinton

In response to:
Course, I did need a just a few good men down there at Waco...

Message:
Q: What's the difference between a school bus driver and Janet Reno?
A: A school bus driver usually stops to let out the kids.

Name:	Albert Ross Finch
To:	Hmmmm Smedley

Message:
Please spank me you rightwing stud muffin hawk.

Name:	Pancake Tits
To:	John Kerry

Message:
Why is it that Democrat broads are always out there trying to show off their nasty little pancake tits??

Kerry's daughter riding into Cannes on Daddy's celebrity status:

Click on image to see full size.

Then there was Chelsea Clinton "winning" the wet tee shirt contest some time ago...

Name:

Pancake Tits

Message:

Chelsea Clinton after "winning" the fixed 'Wet Tee Shirt' contest.
C'mon, you don't think she would really win a fair one, do you?

Name:	Ger Bill
To:	Scotty
Re:	Mulchers

In response to:
Buttons & Beaux

Name:	PWT
Re:	Kerry and Clinton daughters

Message:
We have finally achieved a 'classless society'. What a shame.

Name:	Tomorrow is NOW
To:	New Days, New Ways
Re:	Our New World

In response to:
Civilization must adjust to our new global reality

Message:
Bush out in November. Fox News out in March 05. Guns out before Summer Recess. Comprehensive Universal Employment And Social Responsibility Act passed. U.N. liason offices in West Wing by fall. Busy sessions right through Winter Break getting out priority emergency tax and regulatory adjustments for Change, new Whole-life Healthcare/Prescription Drugs Fairness And Accessibility Program, fundamental voting reforms, public campaign financing at all levels of governance, massive, long-overdue public transportation initiatives and finally, sensible automobile taxes and legislation.

Nationalization of oil resource and other People's Core Resources and Processing Infrastructure. Wal Mart nationalized. Federal News And Information Services actualized for fairness and Balance. Religious tax inequalities repealed. Fairness for all and streamlined tax collection with security and fairness with universal Federal Compensation Disbursment Offices for all Workers. Each Worker is provided with a fair and secure Federal Compensations and Responsibilities Account for the Worker's entire lifecycle.

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
Re:	It's been a while since I've done this....LOL

Message:

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
To:	Fans of BIG BLUE FONTS

Message:
^^Yes, that's right...here's some BIG BLUE FONT for ya!

Name:	Yabbo
To:	Scotty
Re:	Hitler

In response to:
I wish hitler could do me in the arse.

Message:
The Russians are supposed to have part of his jaw. Maybe you can work something out.

Name:	Biggs, Bolander, & Butterick
To:	Parrot # 2
Re:	Like Jane on the AA battery

In response to:
^^Yes, that's right...here's some BIG BLUE FONT for ya! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name:	yawning
To:	HILLARY COMMERCIAL
Re:	nothing new. nothing creative

Message:
ZZZZzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......

Message:
All they Hillary worshipers can do is throw out cheap slogans and cliched rhetorical musings. She is a cliched phoney which is why they do it.

Name:	tell me it ain't so
To:	Editor
Re:	posting from Newsmax now?

Message:

NEWSMAX
Saturday, May 15, 2004 11:31 a.m. EDT

Sen. John Kerry may have his party's nomination locked up, but rank-and-file Democrats would still rather nominate Sen. Hillary Clinton to run against President Bush this year, a new poll shows.

In a survey of 500 Democrats and Democrat-leaning Independents, pollster Frank Luntz pitted Clinton against Kerry in a head-to-head match-up. Forty-seven percent said they'd dump Kerry if the former first lady would agree to be their standard-bearer. Only 44 percent said they'd stand by their man.

Luntz added the question to his poll after top talk radio host Rush Limbaugh asked him to survey Democrats on whether they still preferred other candidates to Kerry. In a list of candidates that didn't include Clinton's name, 40 percent stuck with the Massachusetts Democrat while 57 percent chose others who ran in the primaries.

"This is not a ringing endorsement of their nominee," Limbaugh told his audience after announcing the results on Friday. "It means that people haven't changed their minds about their preference, and it means they're really not lined up behind Kerry at all."

Late last year when the nomination was still in play, Sen. Kerry insisted to CNN that at least one poll showed him leading Mrs. Clinton. At the time, one survey after another showed that Democrats preferred Hillary by wide margins - a trend that continued right up until the Iowa caucuses. A Kerry campaign spokesman, however, later had to admit that the Democrats' second favorite candidate had misspoken. Source = NEWSMAX

Name:	FYI
To:	forum
Re:	I missed the Rally so I read this...passing it on.

In response to:
Most people serving in wars are too embarrassed by "misadventures" to get purple hearts for them, but if you've been inspired by your initials all your life to do self-serving things, what the hay? Get 2 more without hospitalization as medals handed out en masse anyway to multitudes of deserving wounded, what's one or two more. My pocketknife slipped as I whittled so...

Message:
Bush: 'We Will Never Leave Our Decisions to Leaders of Other Nations' Wes Vernon, NewsMax.com Friday, May 14, 2004 WASHINGTON – President Bush vowed under his leadership, the U.S. “will win this war on terror.” Speaking to hundreds of conservatives Thursday night just two blocks from the White House, the president defined the November election as a choice between his policy of defeating “thugs and assassins” on their territory so that “we will not [have to] fight them in our country,” versus Sen. John Kerry's policy of “bold action only if other countries do not object.” “We will never leave our decisions to leaders of other nations,” America’s 43rd president promised. Citing the defeat of the Taliban in Afghanistan and the jailing of Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, the president told his audience at the 40th anniversary gala of American Conservative Union that the U.S. would have to take the war on terror to the enemy. “Either that,” he said, “or trust the word of a madman. Given that choice, I will defend America every time.” Bringing the huge roomful of prominent conservatives to their feet, the chief executive criticized the faulty response to the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993. Without mentioning Bill Clinton by name, Bush noted that although policy-makers of that time thought the first strike against the twin towers was settled by prosecuting the perpetrators as common criminals, al-Qaida, still training in Afghanistan, considered it as the first shot in a real war. Those were days when America was “drifting toward tragedy.” “This will not happen on my watch,” the commander-in-chief promised. The president ridiculed Kerry's infamous gaffe in saying he voted for $87 billion to fund the war in Iraq before he voted against it. “An American president must speak clearly” on military policy, he said. As for Bush’s view of what is at stake in Iraq: The terrorists there “hate free societies. They can’t stand the thought of freedom arising in a part of the world that they want to control. They know that a free Iraq will be a major defeat in the war on terrorists.” Further, America’s enemies “found little support among the Iraqi people, and they will find no success in their attempt to shake the will of the United States of America.” Troops' 'Great Decency and Courage' In a reference to the photos of treatment of Iraqi prisoners, President Bush said they “do not represent the great decency and courage of the overwhelming majority” of American military men and women putting their lives on the line in the war on terror. In sharp contrast, Kerry railed at fund-raiser Tuesday: "What has happened is not just something that a few, you know, privates and corporals or sergeants engaged in. This is something that comes out of an attitude about the rights of prisoners of war. It's an attitude that comes out of how we went there in the first place, an attitude that comes out of America's overall arrogance as policy." “Your defense is in good hands,” the president assured the attendees in another implied rebuke to those who have been piling on Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld. He recalled standing in the rubble of the World Trade Center three days after 9/11, when firemen and policemen cheered his resolve to do “whatever it takes” to deal with those who did this to us. Thursday night’s appearance at ACU was the first time in more than three years of his presidency that President Bush has spoken at a high-profile major event specifically identified with the conservative movement. The close election in 2000 was believed to have prompted the “new tone” at the White House, which meant less partisanship. Until now, the Bush administration has reached out to the Republican Party’s conservative base mainly through back channel contacts and unannounced White House visits, partly to keep fences mended despite differences with conservatives who have been critical of Bush on such issues as immigration (rewarding illegal aliens) and the new prescription-drug program (much too expensive and a threat to keeping taxes down). All of that was put aside Thursday night. Bush is heading into what looks to be (at this point) another close race. His party’s base was gathered for straight talk on the many issues on which they do support this president, and they were ready for what some would define in a rhetorical sense as “red meat.” They were not disappointed. 'Strength and Confidence' vs. 'Old Bitterness' He led them through a long list of profound differences between himself and Sen. Kerry. The incumbent compared the “strength and confidence” his party offered, as opposed to the “old bitterness” that typifies the Democrat party’s rhetoric. The issues of taxes and spending drew the most sustained applause from the crowd. “My opponent’s proposed a lot of new spending, and we’re counting,” he told his supporters. “At last count” Kerry has “proposed $1.9 trillion of new spending, and the election is six months away.” “Of course, you’ve heard the old tired rhetoric that ‘we’re going to tax the rich.’ But there’s not enough money to pay for all their new programs by taxing the rich.” Given Kerry’s record, “there’s no doubt where that money’s going to come from. It’s going to come from the working people of America. The good news is we’re not going to give him the chance.” The American people know that higher taxes “would undermine growth and destroy jobs just as this economy is getting stronger.” “I have a better idea,” he went on, “We should keep taxes low. We will not raise taxes on the American people.” The president noted that “last month America added 288,000 new jobs,” and “manufacturing jobs have increased for three straight months,” with 1.1 million jobs added since last August.” The “highest ever” homeownership rate also is part of the “fastest growth in the past two decades” during the past year. “The tax relief we passed is working,” Bush declared. Kerry's Attack on the Middle Class What does Kerry’s record offer Americans for their future? This is Bush’s view: “When we passed an increase in the child credit to help families, he voted no. When we reduced the marriage penalty, he voted against it. When we created a lower 10 percent bracket for working families, he voted no. When we reduced taxes on dividends which helps our senior citizens, he said no. When we gave small business a tax incentive to expand and hire, he voted against it. When we phased out the death tax, he voted no.” The president brought approving laughter from his supporters when he summed up, “I think we’ve got a trend here.” Not that Kerry always says no, he added. “We get a yes vote out of him when it comes to raising taxes,” 350 times “for higher taxes,” including support for higher gas taxes “11 times,” and the senator once favored a gasoline tax increase of 50 cents a gallon. “That would cost you another $5 or more every time you fill up your tank. For that kind of money, you’d think he’d throw in a free car wash.” Other issues on which he differs from his presumed opponent in November include tort reform to protect American employees and businesses “from frivolous lawsuits” and medical liability reform to deal with a problem that is leading to a shortage of health care professionals in some communities. Those are issues on which the GOP has incurred the enmity of high-profile millionaire and billionaire lawyers. Senate Democrats, at the bidding of trial lawyers, have stalled these initiatives. With high prices at the pump, a comprehensive energy bill is more important than ever, Bush believes, so we can be “less dependent on foreign energy sources,” another proposal bottled up by obstructionist Democrats. Speaking of which: Renewal of welfare reform “based on marriage” and confirmation of good well-qualified judges that the president has nominated have also been stalled by the opposition in the Senate, he noted. Special-interest pressure groups have resulted in denying them an up or down vote. Anti-choice Kerry On domestic matters, the president said, Kerry is “against giving you more control” and “more choices” in how you spend your money. His opponent has “a Washington mind-set” that says “they give orders, and we’ll pay the bills.” With the patriotic song “I’m Proud to Be an American” played after Bush had concluded his remarks, it was clear he had fired up these key people in his party’s base. The only caveat NewsMax heard when mingling with the crowd afterward was the comment that “there was one applause line waiting to be heard” that was not: “One man and one woman,” a reference to the controversy over same-sex marriage. Others thought that was covered, perhaps obliquely, in the chief executive’s reference to “judges who strictly interpret the law,” the key factor in the gay marriage debate. The president’s keynote address highlighted an evening celebrating ACU’s many years in promoting a conservative cause “from the ashes of the Goldwater campaign” of 1964. In fact, the crowd was shown a video of that senator’s famous remarks that extremism in the pursuit of liberty is no vice and moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue. Barry Goldwater is perhaps the best-remembered losing presidential candidate in the second half of the 20th century. And many believe — surely Thursday night’s attendees are convinced — that his candidacy was vindicated 16 years later when the voters sent Ronald Reagan to the White House to repair the damage left by Jimmy Carter. ACU has long been noted as “the gold standard” in recording the votes of lawmakers to determine how conservative they are or are not. The evening was topped off when Wayne LaPierre of National Rifle Association awarded a big picture of a firearm to ACU Chairman David Keene. The picture, which had film star Charlton Heston’s signature on it, was presented in lieu of the “real thing” because Washington’s anti-gun-rights laws prohibited it. Among the nationally known conservatives attending (a list by no means complete) were Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho; Rep. Christopher Cox, R-Calif.; Sen. Zell Miller, D-Ga.; Sen. Jim Bunning, R-Ky.; Rep. Phil Crane, R-Ill., a former ACU chairman; Rep. Richard Pombo, R-Calif.; Sen. Mitch McConnell, R-Ky.; former Attorney General Edwin Meese; Eagle Forum President Phyllis Schlafly; Lou Uhler, a key Reagan operative dating back to the former president’s California governorship; Human Events Editor-in Chief Thomas Winter; Human Events Political Editor John Gizzi; syndicated columnist Robert Novak; author M. Stanton Evans, another former ACU chairman, and whose long-awaited book on Sen. Joe McCarthy is due out later this year; Morton Blackwell, formerly of the Reagan White House, now president of the Leadership Institute; pollster Kellyanne Conway; and Radio America President James Roberts. TV/radio/print commentator Tony Snow served as master of ceremonies. Urgent: President Bush needs your support – Click Here Now and show your support to your friends and family

Name:	Jes Noticed
To:	forum

In response to:
Dems Would Dump Kerry for Hillary Sen. John Kerry may have his party's nomination locked up, but rank-and-file Democrats would still rather nominate Sen. Hillary Clinton to run against President Bush this year, a new poll shows.

Message:
So if Hilliary Rodham Clinton is nominated for VP and she is the only one who would, Kerry will become "old guy and in the way". Democrats could find a deserving spotless-immaculate candidate, but Lieberman's already been there and done that.

Name:	NEWS FLASH!
To:	forum

Message:
Every single gay person in SF just jumped abord the Spruce Goose which has been chartered to Boston this morning ~~~~~~~~

Name:	Friend Among Millions of GW Bush
To:	Fried Man

In response to:
t is time to ask this question: Do we have any chance of succeeding at regime change in Iraq without regime change here at home?

Message:
Discussing the overthrow of the US Government used to be sedition. "Regime" infers something akin to a military dictatorship, as if there was a coupe of some sort. Calling for the duely elected "regime" to be ousted is a crime unless one mentions not re-electing which you did not. If I could have agents knocking on your door and "taking you downtown for a few hours of questions" until you are frazzled and say the wrong thing ,I'd drive their car for them.

I'm sick and tired (old Hillary cliche) of hearing about there are no WMDs since they were exported to Syria for one. Democrats think we are stupid and don't know about Quaddifi handing over the nukes he didn't want in the first place but Saddam gave him. Four dozen MIG jet planes stashed in the desert were to be turned into a war meuseum?

Kerry is so anti-military he accused his fellow soldiers of hundreds of atrocities, furthermore Kerry has voted against raises and new weopons ever since Massasseucettes elected him Senator for no apparent reason. (Is Mass. anti-military or just anti- straight marriage? another topic entirely)

Meanwhile we implor people who talk "regime change" to don armbands and march in the streets if that's how they feel. The American Nazi, American Communist Party, and others taking advantage of our FREE SOCIETY openly protest and do not make sly remarks. If you're anti-American, just say so or if you cannot stand the heat get out of the anarchists' kitchen! Emma Goldstein was deported for undermining with the draft during wartime and you can get your free trip also!

Name:

no wmd's

Message:
Roadside bomb containing sarin nerve agent explodes in Iraq

Name:

**** May 17 ****

In response to:
The specific function of the Constitution is to define and limit democracy by defining and limiting what may be subjected to democratic action.

Message:
The statement above could possibly be perceived to be true, but it also can be misinterpreted. The Constitution was made to "create" democracy, & define its functions. Also to limit certain powers, so "tyranny" would not reappear. THE ENTIRE PURPOSE FOR THE AMERICAN REVOLUTION WAS TO GET RID OF KING GEORGE III, and establish A FREE GOVERNMENT HERE, ruled by OUR people, AND TO ABOLISH TYRANNY, such as anyone trying to limit our FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

"A body of men holding themselves accountable to nobody ought not to be trusted by anybody." (p. 91)

"The greatest characters the world has known have risen on the democratic floor. Aristocracy has not been able to keep a proportionate pace with democracy." (p. 91)

Name:	Wanga
To:	All
Re:	New Beginnings

In response to:
Hillary Rodham Clinton

Message:
Hillary Rodham Clinton will ride in to the sullen and depressed Democratic convention in all her Radiance and instantly take over the entire proceedings. The tearful, ecstatic cheering, dancing, and chanting will continue for hours. Kerry will be lucky to get out of there alive.

It will be the greatest mass-orgasm and menses synchronization in human history. The choice of VP will be entirely up to Hillary, and she might as well designate Maxine Waters. (Nancy Pelosi is just too damned white, and those Yankee-Lib fempyrsyn Gentleladies are just too damned crazy)

Peter Jennings and other talking heads will be incoherent for days, excitedly babbling slogans, buzz-words, and happytalk.

The NAACP and Rainbow/PUSH will move their offices into the White House, which will be in for a long-overdue re-naming immediately following Hillary's ascension. It will be the Radical Left's Rapture, and the 21st Century will finally have reached Amerika.

Name:	HRC H8r
To:	Hillary Suppository

In response to:
^^Yes, that's right...here's some BIG BLUE FONT for ya!

Message:
Here's some big blue font for you too, Hillary Suppository... most people have had quite enough of the Klintoonz.

Name:	Tomato Paste
To:	Merci MOO
Re:	The American Republic

In response to:
The statement above could possibly be perceived to be true

Message:
The statement is true, Ms. MOO. It is a simple, basic, truthful statement and it needs no qualification. Thomas Paine was, literally, a republican. We live in the Republic of the United States of America, of which Thomas Paine was co-architect.

Name:	All I can standz, I can't standz no more
To:	Hillary Suppository

Message:

Message:
A revolution, a democracy, and a republic are three different things. The Founding Fathers of this nation contrived and erected a republic, not a democracy. The two are fundamentally different, and a republic is fundamentally superior.

You are free to speak, for the most part, and others are free to both speak and criticize and even to lampoon what you say or write. Awful, ain't it?

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
To:	Hillary H8er's

In response to:
All I can standz, I can't standz no more

Name:	Rightwing Birch Cadres
To:	Picture Pooper
Re:	Hillary Clinton Forum

In response to:
All I can standz, I can't standz no more

Message:
Then go elsewhere. There must be at least a hundred million websites on the internet right now.

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
To:	HRC H8ER

In response to:
Here's some big blue font for you too, Hillary Suppository... most people have had quite enough of the Klintoonz.

Message:
You make that comment and yet you visit a message forum that is titled "Hillary Clinton forum -- Supporting HRC for pres. since 1995 @ Hillary,org. (/sarcasm) WTF??

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
To:	R.R. Birch Cadres

In response to:
Then go elsewhere. There must be at least a hundred million websites on the internet right now

The truth is they really don't want to go ANYWHERE else. They are here to trash leftwingers and for no other reason!

Name:	Desert Bushman
To:	Hillary Supporter!!!!!!!
Re:	Nuisance who wants to provoke wholesale deletes

In response to:
The truth is they really don't want to go ANYWHERE else. They are here to trash leftwingers and for no other reason! --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name:	NEWS FLASH!
To:	forum

In response to:
Every single gay person in SF just jumped abord the Spruce Goose which has been chartered to Boston this morning ~~~~~~~~

Message:
Packing into the craft so densely, breathing was limited to a few. Finally all 487 got aboard and the plane capsized in the harbour. Oh the humanity! The pilot had not even gotton on board and all are at the bottom of the harbour. DEAD! It's the worst maritime disaster in the history of the world! Poor Iggy, Bert, Gordon, jenny, Samantha, Barney, Mickey, and the others of the Zoo Bar scene!

A floating memorial will be placed at the site like the one at Pearl Harbour. It's the only thing humaine to do, the only politically correct thing to do. We must rais ethe money for this Floating Memorial. These poor bodies are swollen in that warm watter filling every square inch of the aircraft. Getting them out would be impossible, given the tightness and the depth. NPR and all the educational channels will have fund raisers to honor the dead!

Name:	PWT
To:	HILLARY SUPPORTER

In response to:
They are here to trash leftwingers and for no other reason!

Message:
Wrong, as usual. The so-called 'rightwingers' do not come here to 'trash' leftwingers. It is more of a case of the informed coming to enlighten the ignorant. The forum says that it is open to debate yet the ignorant are truly unable to debate as their notions are not based in fact and their conclusions, in the rare instances when facts are involved, do not rely on logic. Therefore it is impossible to debate such a person. The 'trashing' only occus when the informed finally become exasperated and can no longer tolerate the ignorant and their inability to comprehend their own situation and shortcomings.

Perhaps one reson that the so-called 'rightwingers' come here is because this forum is result #1 when the phrase "I hate Hillary Clinton forum" is entered. It may also be the altruistic nature of the informed to educate the ignorant.

Name:	Bystander
To:	Friend of George Bush
Re:	REGIME CHANGE

In response to:
Discussing the overthrow of the US Government used to be sedition. "Regime" infers something akin to a military dictatorship, as if there was a coupe of some sort. Calling for the duely elected "regime" to be ousted is a crime unless one mentions not re-electing. If I could have agents knocking on your door and "taking you downtown for a few hours of questions" I would drive their car for them.

Clearly your problem arises from the misunderstanding of normal vocabulary words. The word "regime"does NOT indicate a dictatorship or coup. (see below). And the words "regime change" simply means the change of the current guy at the top, usually accomplished (in US) with elections. So you are getting your panties in a wad over nothing. But while we are on the subject of Vocabulary: The word sedition is not simply talking about a future election here, (which was GUARANTEED by our Constitution) but in order to be doing sedition, one must be actively inciting to rebellion or the forceful overthrow of an entire govt, such as revolution, civil war, etc.

I would be highly amused if any 'authorities" or agents would want to interrogate or arrest any citizen for talking about the current elections, (much less deport them), but if there was ANY POSSIBILITY that they could or would do that, THAT ALONE would prove we live in Fascist tyranny.

regime: Mode or system of rule or management; character of government, or of the prevailing social system.

regime: the organization that is the governing authority of a political unit; [syn: {government}, {authorities}]

sedition: illegal action inciting resistance to lawful authority and tending to cause the disruption or overthrow of the government. [syn: revolution, rebellion]

Name:	By the Way
To:	Friend of George Bush
Re:	(with same problems of vocabulary)

In response to:
A REAL example of attempting to overthrow the authority of an elected official, would be the Republican's attempt to overcome the will of the people who elected Bill Clinton by the act of IMPEACHMENT. They really DID attempt by word & action to 'overthrow" the elected govt authority.

Name:	Smedley
To:	SET

In response to:
Sen. John Kerry may have his party's nomination locked up, but rank-and-file Democrats would still rather nominate Sen. Hillary Clinton to run against President Bush this year, a new poll shows.

Message:
Amazing, isn't it. Zogby said the 2004 election is Kerry's to lose However, looks like Kerry is doing just that.

Name:

Smedley

DAMN THAT CONSTITUTION

Name:

...

Message:
And the Pious One committed no illegal activities...(except for the ones he plea bargained to)

Name:	SET
To:	Smedley

In response to:
Amazing, isn't it. Zogby said the 2004 election is Kerry's to lose However, looks like Kerry is doing just that.

Message:
The problem with Kerry is that he does not have that certain quality "charisma" -- and he is not a visionary. I remember years ago when we studied the profiles of a leaders. No matter how brilliant, insightful or honorable a person is he or she must have charisma and vision.

As we all know some of the worst species of humanity have become leaders of their tribe, country or whatever, because they had charisma.

Name:

Smedley

In response to:
Wrong, as usual. The so-called 'rightwingers' do not come here to 'trash' leftwingers. It is more of a case of the informed coming to enlighten the ignorant. ...

Message:
There is very litle about what the left posts here that we on the right find "enlightening". If exposing ficticious garbage is "trashing" then so be it.

If the left here truely wished to enlighten, then they would not be caught in so many FACTUAL falsehoods. I mean, I've seen all manner of manufactured "facts" -- everything from 200 year old quotes to news of the day. When Merci Mao, Navajo Scott, LoP or spIndividual posts something chances are better than not that critical "facts" are manufactured: it is the presumption now due to past performance.

By the way, I don't extend that presumption to SET or Hillary Supporter. Generally, they make an effort to get their facts right. Their logic I question sometimes, but such is life.

Name:	Evelyn Wood
To:	Bi-stander
Re:	Sylvan Method

In response to:
Clearly your problem arises from the misunderstanding of normal vocabulary words. The word "regime"does NOT indicate a dictatorship or coup.

Message:
Clearly that is not the author's intent... Guess you failed the reading comprehension portion of the SAT. Oh on second thought, you're the one who still uses JUNIOR HIGH SCHOOL TEXTS...never mind

Name:	Son of PurpleHeart
To:	ET

In response to:
The problem with Kerry is that he does not have that certain quality "charisma" -- and he is not a visionary. I remember years ago when we studied the profiles of a leaders. No matter how brilliant, insightful or honorable a person is he or she must have charisma and vision. As we all know some of the worst species of humanity have become leaders of their tribe, country or whatever, because they had charisma. Personally I think Kerry is a good person.

Message:
I won't trash you for your opinion, and I won't go ballistic. However, I'm 2nd generation career Navy. As a veteran I simply cannot vote for Kerry. He was what we call a "ticket puncher" and his real record isn't coming out because the press wants to concentrate on other issues. He may be a "good person" but he is not someone you want to trust your life to...period.

Name:	Muhamad Ali on my checkbook
To:	forum
Re:	I'm Olive for Bush

In response to:
There are many, many people of Middle Eartern area support Bush!

Message:
Not the Only Arab I am not the only person of MidEast origin who supports Bush and the war in Iraq. Here are some pictures of and websites of pro-war and pro-Bush websites by some of my fellow Olives. Iraqi Blogs That Need to Be Read by All: Healing Iraq Road of a Nation Iraq the Model A Family in Baghdad Iraq at a Glance Where is Raed? Sun of Iraq More Pro-War Sites: Picture from Iraqi Liberation Day More Pictures from Iraqi Liberation Day Kuwaitis Celebrate Fall of Saddam Article on Arab Support for Bush More Arab Support for Bush FBI Working with Muslims for Unity Kurds Celebrate Saddam-Less World It was hard finding recent articles relating to Arab-American support for Bush. I think that is due to the fact that the US as a nation is at a critical turning point. Do we continue to be protected Democracy under leadership like George Bush? Or do we turn tail and run to the UN as John Kerry would have us do? Mind you, I do not agree with a lot of things Bush has done, including how he went about invading Iraq. I think that Bush should have waited for more accurate information and made sure that everything was clear with the motivations for going to war. I think the PR campaign in Iraq could have been improved. But in the end, the Iraqis are safe. Isn't that what is important?

Name:	PWT
Re:	Baguette with mayo please....

In response to:
LAS VEGAS, May 16 -- Democratic presidential candidate John F. Kerry should tap Rep. Richard A. Gephardt (Mo.) for vice president as a way to maximize union enthusiasm and turnout this fall, James Hoffa Jr., president of the Teamsters, said Sunday.

Message:
The words "Gephardt" and "enthusiasm" are rarely if ever seen in the same sentence.

Name:	Yippee Yi O tayae
To:	Hillary Supporter

In response to:
^^Yes, that's right...here's some BIG BLUE FONT for ya!

Message:
Do you really think that it's cute to post those annoying big blue fonts in capital letters all the time? Why can't you left wing radicals be a little more creative. Someone please teach Hillary Suppository how to at least color her fonts so that they are interesting.<BR><BR>
But then there's the whole other issue of her sycophantic obsequeties and kowtowing to her heathen goddess...

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
To:	The Forum
Re:	Look what I found...

Message:
I know this has been out since march, but I just happened to find it with the recent news on Nick Berg. Some of you might find this interesting as you will notice that Nick and Michael Berg are both on the list. Click here:

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
To:	The Forum
Re:	Look what I found...

And these are the people who have posts after posts on a Clinton death list that doesn't even exist! Go figure!!

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
To:	Yippee Yi O tayae

In response to:
Do you really think that it's cute to post those annoying big blue fonts in capital letters all the time? Why can't you left wing radicals be a little more creative. Someone please teach Hillary Suppository how to at least color her fonts so that they are interesting.

But then there's the whole other issue of her sycophantic obsequeties and kowtowing to her heathen goddess...

Just for the very fact that when I type in blue font it draws these type of responses is hilarious!

Name:	Mr. Pleasant
To:	Onion Dip Brain In Blue

Message:
Just because you want something to be true, doesn't mean that it is. Same for Hilllary. As much as you wish that she is a strong, independent woman, she isn't. She's a fraud through and through.

Name:	PWT
To:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
Re:	Like a teacher on Saturday

In response to:
Some of you might find this interesting as you will notice that Nick and Michael Berg are both on the list.

Message:
Good reading! Their friends at International A.N.S.W.E.R. put their names on that list to publicize their affiliation and their beliefs. Following your logic, you seemto be sugguesting that Mr. Berg was killed by a group of people related to the Republican Party or more specifically the current administration here in the US because of his affiliation. Correct me if I'm wrong, ET or LVD, but unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about Mr. Berg's death were to be deleted weren't they?

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
To:	PWT

In response to:
Good reading! Their friends at International A.N.S.W.E.R. put their names on that list to publicize their affiliation and their beliefs. Following your logic, you seemto be sugguesting that Mr. Berg was killed by a group of people related to the Republican Party or more specifically the current administration here in the US because of his affiliation. Correct me if I'm wrong, ET or LVD, but unsubstantiated conspiracy theories about Mr. Berg's death were to be deleted weren't they?

Message:
Puhleeze!! I don't think the Freeper's or this Administration had ANYTHING to do with it. I'm just pointing out who these Freepers think are their enemies. They have listed Nick as an ememy a while back.

Name:

Mr. Pleasant

In response to:
As much as you wish that she is a strong, independent woman, she isn't. She's a fraud through and through.

Message:
It's not her, it's the morons with half a brain that are enthralled by her that is the problem.

Name:	() ()
To:	^^

In response to:
As it turns out, our military intelligence officers in Iraq have told the Red Cross that between 70 and 90 percent of the persons in Iraqi jails were arrested "by mistake", and so are being tortured "by mistake".

Message:
Clue: The two star general is a Philipino-hawaiian in Liberal pockets. He was inspired by the very name Abu (Ash in Tagalog) and Ghraber (Grabber in English) After Tailhook everybody in the military knew what an Ash Graber was even the generals who stayed on after the downturn of the US military 1992-2000. He was approached or he approached as an agent provacateur to get the "goods" on the US military and pump up this scandal with pictures. His connection with L. England is unknown, but he did the setup. Why? Overlooked for promotion? Felt threatened by Sec. Rumsfeld? Hired for a nice retirement money nestegg? All this was obviously set up. People do not go around posing pictures for the hell of it. Forget the Geneva Convention. Terrorist by definition as irregulars, warped psychos, religious excusologists, nutballs, beheading perverts, etc are omitted from the Geneva Convention rules of engagement. We are not making nice with those who kidnap, torture, and behead us and not even the UN and NATO are so far gone idealogically as to think that we will.

Name:	Last Visible Dog
To:	HILLARY SUPPORTER

In response to:
I know this has been out since march, but I just happened to find it with the recent news on Nick Berg. Some of you might find this interesting as you will notice that Nick and Michael Berg are both on the list. Click here: And these are the people who have posts after posts on a Clinton death list that doesn't even exist! Go figure!!

1. What you linked to was a reposting of a list of people associated with the anti-American group ANSWER. The List is and was available on ANSWER’S website.

2. Nick Berg is NOT ON THE LIST (what, do you just parrot what DU or some other extremists tell you to parrot?)

3. The Clinton Death List is very real and I don't think we want dueling Death Lists on the forum because I have read both and the Bush Death List is complete lunacy (they claim the Bush’s killed both JFK and Martin Luther King Jr) and the Clinton Death List is far more compelling (yet loony). The reason we are removing conspiracy theories and tin-foil-hat crap is if one side gets to post this nonsense then the other side will post their nonsense and the forum turns into a food fight cesspool.

Name:	Smedley
To:	Hillary Supporter

In response to:
And these are the people who have posts after posts on a Clinton death list that doesn't even exist! Go figure!!

Message:
FYI, I have been on RECORD as a major critic of the "Clinton death list". Seems that if Bill Clinton had a second cousin that did business with someone who died under suspicious circumstances, it'd be on that list.

Name:	Last Visible Dog
To:	HILLARY SUPPORTER

In response to:
I just saw that this board was, I guess..."freep'd", and before I knew it the editors were hard at work!

Some A-hole posted some porn. I removed it. I still beleive the porn comes from a nasty left winger but since we don't know who is doing it all we can do is speculate. HILLARY SUPPORTER, if you want to speculate the attack cames from Free Republic yet you do not have any evidence - I will consider that a tin-foil-hat post that needs to be placed in the dumper.

Name:	Last Visible Dog
To:	HILLARY SUPPORTER

In response to:
Puhleeze!! I don't think the Freeper's or this Administration had ANYTHING to do with it. I'm just pointing out who these Freepers think are their enemies. They have listed Nick as an ememy a while back.

The List is merely a repost of the list available on the Anti-American group ANSWER. I personally agree, ANSWER is an enemy of America...or at the very least, an opponent.

BAGHDAD (Reuters) - A small amount of the nerve agent sarin was found in a shell that exploded in Iraq (news - web sites), the U.S. army said Monday in the first announcement of discovery of any of the weapons on which Washington made its case for war.

Name:

The Voice of Reason

In response to:
WMD found in Iraq - Left Wing Extremists will need to spin this story

Blix says "evidence of WMD does not mean Iraq had WMD, it is just stray WMD that everybody has in the back of their closets"

Two former weapons inspectors — Hans Blix and David Kay — said the shell was likely a stray weapon that had been scavenged by militants and did not signify that Iraq had large stockpiles of such weapons.

For my next prediction: The Left Wing Extremist Media will NOT report this story.

Name:	Smedley
To:	LVD

Message:
1. What you linked to was a reposting of a list of people associated with the anti-American group ANSWER. The List is and was available on ANSWER’S website.

2. Nick Berg is NOT ON THE LIST (what, do you just parrot what DU or some other extremists tell you to parrot?)

For some reason, I couldn't even view the list, but I'll take your word for this.

My criticism of the Clinton death list has to do with the garbage on it. Sure, there are a number of compelling deaths, e.g, Vince and the odd former Clinton associate, but the weight of garbage totally destroys its credibility.

The more interesting issue about the dueling death lists is the sheer number of people common to both the Bushs and the Clintons.

The reason we are removing conspiracy theories and tin-foil-hat crap is if one side gets to post this nonsense then the other side will post their nonsense and the forum turns into a food fight cesspool.

AMEN

Name:

Nostradamnus

In response to:
WMD found in Iraq - Left Wing Extremists will need to spin this story

Message:
No problem! It's a plant intended to raise Bush's numbers by Halliburton operatives of a product that they mean to force into the floors of the school lunch program!

Name:	Smedley
To:	The Voice of Reason

In response to:
For my next prediction: The Left Wing Extremist Media will NOT report this story.

In fact, I've already heard the spin -- based on some rather idiotic logic. Apparently, the turds who set off the Sarin explosion screwed things up so as to minimize the amount of Sarin gas released. Apparently, the chemical warhead needs to be launched to work properly whereas here it was rigged as a roadside bomb. Ergo, according to the press, that doesn't qualify as a WMD attack.

Name:	Smedley
To:	Nostradamnus

In response to:
No problem! It's a plant intended to raise Bush's numbers by Halliburton operatives of a product that they mean to force into the floors of the school lunch program!

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
To:	LVD

In response to:
Did you actually READ the link you tried to post twice? Nick Berg IS NOT ON THE LIST! Who told you to parrot that lie? Or did you make that one up all by yourself? The List is merely a repost of the list available on the Anti-American group ANSWER. I personally agree, ANSWER is an enemy of America...or at the very least, an opponent.

Message:
I skimmed through it. He may not be on the list, but if you look at the bottom of the posting where they reference their posts by certain keywords, you will see both "nickberg" and "michealberg" as keywords. I was made aware of the link from an article I read on the internet.

I'm not here to quarrel, but I wouldn't rule out members from that site just yet. I have seen (with my own eyes) some of my postings pulled from this board and posted on theirs.

Scandal

Name:	Total Recallin'
To:	forum and ^^
Re:	French may have used swords but favor Guillotine

In response to:
Although head-chopping is now seen as a mode of communication between Islamist militants and the Western world, the overwhelming victims have been Muslims. Mankind has a natural propensity to become used to the worst atrocities and factor in the cruelest facts of life. But the sight of a severed head will continue to shock even the most blasé of the cynics. This is why those who are defying the whole of humanity in this war on terrorism are certain to continue to employ people like Momo le Nain.

Message:
Chackah Khan likes the posting as depected in the mini-series of the 1970s. The duller the point the greater the suffer time. UGGGG. Scalping is also said to be a French idea carried over from trapping amimals. The fur was a valuable commodity thus the scalp became a trophy. I suppose an Edi Amin might like a coat of scalps. The Nazi like dermatitical lampshades preferably with an arm tattoo one would suppose for authentication of who the shade had been originally. Sadly, the Am. aborigine people got all the credit for inventing/practicing scalping. That ear thing is another story.

Name:

Colored Kid

Message:

Don't expect to see the story about WMDs being found headlining on CNN. The leftwing propagandists there have figured out that they can affect Bush's ratings by shrieking non-stop about prisoner abuses. They have even been calling for Rumsfeld to resign. Sheesh. You would think he blew up an aspirin factory or burned some children alive like Clinton did or something.

Name:	Smedley
To:	Supporter

I'm not here to quarrel, but I wouldn't rule out members from that site just yet.

I have seen (with my own eyes) some of my postings pulled from this board and posted on theirs.

Name:	Ray Lee Haggis
To:	Hillary Supporter!!!!!!!

In response to:
I'm not here to quarrel, but I wouldn't rule out members from that site just yet. I have seen (with my own eyes) some of my postings pulled from this board and posted on theirs.

Message:
They also turn up at MadKane.com. and probably numerous other sites. What of it?

Name:

I would do her before I would ever do that Chelseabeastly thingie

Message:

You can make out every single feature of her anatomy.
Her gut is bulging out over her granny panties (she should have wore black ones.)
Her boobs are all pancakey, and it's not like that flimsy fabric is squishing them or anything.
It looks like she's on the rag too, because of that bulge in her panties, unless she's packing a Hillrod too.

She's got her daddy's horseface thing going, but about 12 beers, and she's doable.

Anybody got any photos of her from behind? I hear she has a tattoo.

Name:	Nboab Nno
To:	Blancs
Re:	Vivisectionists

In response to:
Sadly, the Am. aborigine people got all the credit for inventing/practicing scalping. That ear thing is another story. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message:
A Brit will cut you up as bad as anyone else. They used to cut each other up very badly. They would open bellies and burn the spilt guts, then draw and quarter the sufferer. Very bad. Very British. But the depravity of the French is without equal. This was proven in France, Haiti, South America, and Vietnam.

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
To:	Ray Lee Haggis

In response to:
They also turn up at MadKane.com. and probably numerous other sites. What of it?

Name:	HILLARY SUPPORTER
To:	Smedley

In response to:
I have seen (with my own eyes) some of my postings pulled from this board and posted on theirs.

Name:	Mr. Pleasant
Re:	Kerrys bastard

Message:
She looks pretty good to me! Too bad he turned her into a bastard by getting the marriage anulled. Those whacky catholics! Like she doesn't even exist. Another reason I think the guy is an idiot.

More News the Left Wing Propaganda Operation (formally known as the mainstream media) will not report.

Twelve out of a group of nineteen Vietnam swift boat veterans pictured in Sen. John Kerry's presidential campaign literature demanded on Monday that he stop misrepresenting them as supporters.

"Many of us don't want to be included in that picture because we have a rather unsavory feeling about this fellow," Kerry swift boatmate Bob Elder told nationally syndicated radio host Linda Chavez.

Citing the top Democrat's anti-war activities after he returned from Vietnam, Elder told Chavez, "We regard the fact that he rallied the American public against his fellow s in arms as basically a betrayal of all of us."

Swift boat veteran Bill Shumadine, who's also pictured in the campaign literature, told the Liberty Broadcasting host that he didn't want to be associated with Kerry in any way, calling his conduct after the war "very offensive."

"Having my picture there it appears that I somehow support his cause," Shumadine explained, adding, "It's not something that I'm proud to be associated with."

Elder, Shumadine and ten others have banded together in a group they call "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth," which includes more than 220 Vietnam veterans who served in Kerry's unit.

Of the remaining six veterans pictured in the photograph, "one is deceased and three do not wish to be involved in any manner; only two of the 19 are believed to support Kerry," the group said in a Monday press release.

"His use of a photograph with his 18 s with knowledge that 12 of them condemn him . . . is a complete misrepresentation to the public and a total fraud," Shumadine added.

Elder told Chavez that the group of twelve included not only Kerry's boat mates, but two of his superior officers who joined in condemning Democratic presidential candidate.

He noted also that at a press conference Friday in Washington, the group was joined by Jim Zumwalt, son of the late Admiral Elmo Zumwalt, former chief of naval operations during the Vietnam war.

"Even Jim Zumwalt, on his father's behalf, joined us in condemning the activities of John, saying they do not make this man a fit candidate for Commander in Chief," Elder told Chavez.

In an open letter to Kerry included with the press release, the group said, "We did not give permission for you to use a photo including our image, nor do we support you. . . We join our fellow Swiftees who believe that someone who heaped scorn and lies on his own unit for his personal political gain is not fit to be Commander in Chief."

Name:

Daddy's little Girl

Message:

So which Democrat flasher chick would you do?
Man, looks like that Kerry girl has a nasty bug bite on her foot. What kind of places has she been hanging out at to get such bedbug bites like that. Eeeewwww. Boney knees too.

Name:

Vietnam Vet

In response to:
"We regard the fact that he rallied the American public against his fellow s in arms as basically a betrayal of all of us."

Name:

Propanda Meister

Message:

THERE IS NO STORY ABOUT KERRY'S SWIFT BOAT CREWS>>>
~~Twelve out of a group of nineteen Vietnam swift boat veterans pictured in Sen. John Kerry's presidential campaign literature demanded on Monday that he stop misrepresenting them as supporters.~~

BUSH AND RUMSFELD TORTURED IRAQI PRISONERS! THE WAR IS A QUAGMIRE. THERE ARE NO WMDs!!!!!!!!!

Name:	A. Man
To:	Pancake TIt's Kerry.

In response to:
She looks pretty good to me! Too bad he turned her into a bastard by getting the marriage anulled. Those whacky catholics! Like she doesn't even exist. Another reason I think the guy is an idiot

Message:
Some women should wear see-through clothes, like JLo, and some should not. Kerry's bastard kid should not. Based on her facial expression, she must be constipated. After over three years of abusive comments about the classy Bush twins one thing we do know, the Bush twins don’t dress like s unlike the Kerry bastard spawn.

Name:

Man, put that horse in a Burka!

Message:
Man, what's with Kerry's daughter going out in public like that just about naked? Is she an exhibitionist or something? Her tits aren't even that nice, and she doesn't have a flat tummy...

Name:	A. Man
To:	Pancake TIt's Kerry.

In response to:
So which Democrat flasher chick would you do? Man, looks

Name:	jo gunn
To:	penis pie