The ineffectiveness of U.S. intelligence agencies

Michael Moran

Senior correspondent

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The ineffectiveness of U.S. intelligence agencies

We treated terrorism ... as a crime, not as a new asymmetric form of warfare.”

By Michael Moran

Senior correspondent

MSNBC

Updated: 5:51 p.m. ET April 02, 2004

In May of 2001, one of the very few public figures who genuinely raised a warning about the threat al-Qaida and other terrorist groups pose to America won an audience with the new vice president, Dick Cheney. The public figure was a Republican stalwart, former Virginia Gov. Jim Gilmore, head of an obscure commission that had just issued a report six months earlier, “Toward a National Strategy for Combating Terrorism.”

In its executive summary, released in December 2000, Gilmore wrote: “The potential for terrorist attacks inside the borders of the United States is a serious emerging threat. … Because the stakes are so high, our nation’s leaders must take seriously the possibility of an escalation of terrorist violence against the homeland.”

Gilmore’s panel studied the problem for two years before the attacks, but he felt the threat was being ignored. “The political and media people had nothing but Chandra and Monica on their minds,” he told me. “Our hearings were open, public events. Not once in two years did a major media outlet cover them.”

Gilmore hoped his meeting with Cheney was a breakthrough. “I had personal ties to the new administration, and the vice president seemed interested. He took notes, and I had a follow-up with one of his aides a few months later,” Gilmore says. “But nothing really happened. In the end, we didn’t see any evidence of any interest at all. No one called us to Congress, no one called us to the executive branch.”

Now and then
This is the important backdrop to next week’s resumption of fire between the White House and its critics over 9/11, a fight that might be called “Who Lost the Trade Centers?”

This weekend, as national security adviser Condoleezza Rice rehearses for her upcoming 9/11 commission testimony, and her nemesis, former NSC aide Richard Clarke, continues a book and media tour to press home his charges that the Bush administration he once worked for failed to heed warnings in early 2001, there are signs of a dangerous diversion from the 9/11 panel’s main job: preventing another 9/11-style attack.

Since Clarke’s book appeared two weeks ago, the debate has turned visceral, emotional and deeply personal — not just to the officials with jobs and reputations at stake, but to tens of thousands of people whose loved ones died in the attacks or in the successive wars of revenge and regime change.

It also has turned away from what many closest to the investigation regard as important. To the dismay of Gov. Thomas Kean, the Republican who chairs the 9/11 panel, politics has become the focus just as the American public begins to pay attention.

"There was no support for pre-emptive action against terrorists before 9/11, and even though Richard Clarke was right in his warnings, he knows that," says Steven Emerson, a terrorism expert and NBC News analyst. "This whodunit stuff is not really that useful."

The finger-pointing, rebuttals and character assassinations make good copy and bytes, but they obscure a far more serious and persistent problem: the ineffectiveness of U.S. intelligence agencies, a problem dramatically on display again during 2002 and 2003 in the form of a complete misreading of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction capabilities.

“We really, really did not want this to go this way,” says a commission source. “It is a huge diversion. We’re debating a truism: The United States was caught with its pants down, and that includes Republicans and Democrats alike.”

The fact of the matter — and it is a fact — is that going back to Desert One, the failed attempt to rescue the Iran hostages in 1979 — no American president, from Ronald Reagan through the George W. Bush of Sept. 10, 2001, chose to take such risks again to forestall or even retaliate against terrorist groups.

One of the Republican members of the commission, John Lehman, who served as Reagan’s secretary of the Navy, told the American Spectator that “you can trace it back as far as the Reagan administration, but it really gained steam in the [first] Bush administration — the increasing dominance of decision-making by lawyers,” he said.

The cautious approach advised by government lawyers was handed from one president to the next, from Bush I to Clinton and from Clinton to Bush II. Even after Sept. 11, Lehman notes, a military lawyer talked Central Command officers out of firing a Hellfire missile at a man thought to be Taliban leader Mullah Omar “because he said it would be an assassination and in violation of Gerald Ford’s executive order because you can’t target a state official.”

Risk aversion
Gen. Wayne Downing, the retired former commander of U.S. special operations command, recalls the frustration of being told to draw up plans to “hit back” at terrorists in the 1980s and 1990s only to be ordered to stand down by “a risk-averse Pentagon.”

I'd like to have a nickel for every operation we developed to deal with terrorists that was never executed,” says Downing, who returned to government after the 9/11 attacks as the first head of the new White House Office for Combating Terrorism.

“We did not have the political will to go after these people who had killed our citizens and were planning to kill more of our people in the future. We treated terrorism ... as a crime, not as a new asymmetric form of warfare.”

Did the sudden changing of the guard — from Clinton/Gore to Bush/Cheney — change this attitude?

“That’s not my sense at all,” says Gilmore. “It wasn’t seen as directly threatening to the United States and other foreign policy matters that were urgent.

All of this — all of it — is so much polluted water under the bridge and, many believe, a dangerous diversion from fixing what is still wrong with America’s anti-terrorism defenses: our crazy-quilt, politically competitive intelligence agencies.

To date, the lapses that led to 9/11 have been the subject of no fewer than six major commissions or congressional panels. Each one has cited glaring errors in the handling of evidence in the months leading up to the attacks on the part of the myriad of intelligence and law enforcement agencies charged with preventing such things. The consensus: U.S. intelligence suffered from overlapping jurisdictions, unclear missions, a reluctance to share evidence between agencies and a structure that leaves uncertain who, ultimately, has responsibility for the vital functions of intelligence and counterterrorism.

Rivalries and duplication
In response, efforts to force changes have been made, particularly in defining the mission of the intelligence community as a whole. But the most recent report on the issue, from the bipartisan Markle Task Force, casts serious doubt on aspects of what is being presented as a revamped and battle-ready U.S. intelligence network.

The report, for instance, criticizes the administration for making the intelligence problem worse by creating new agencies with overlapping jurisdictions — the Terrorist Threat Integration Center (TTIC) and the Department of Homeland Security’s (DHS) Information Analysis and Infrastructure Protection (IAIP) office.

“The very fact of the TTIC’s creation has caused confusion within the federal government and among state and local governments about the respective roles of TTIC and DHS,” the report says. “Moreover, neither the TTIC nor the DHS has gotten very far in putting in place the necessary staff or framework for analyzing information and sharing it broadly among the relevant federal, state and local agencies.”

Far from being more coordinated, others say, intelligence agencies proliferated after 9/11, allowing one agency to trump another with an analysis more in line with the wishes of the political leadership.

At the Pentagon, for instance, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld created a new “undersecretary of defense for intelligence” post for one of his closest advisers, Steve Cambone, which many in the field regarded as an effort to ensure intelligence can never be centralized under the CIA director.

“The danger, of course, is that when the administration doesn’t like what CIA is telling it, like on Iraq, it can get a different view from intel shops under defense,” says a 9/11 committee source.

Most also view the FBI, in particular, as an agency that still is not suited for counterterrorism. Says commissioner Lehman: “The attacks of 9/11 exposed a totally dysfunctional government. The intelligence community is in drastic need of repair. There are many, many shortcomings.”

As you listen to Rice and Clarke thrust and parry next week about what should have happened, remember the tense that Lehman is speaking in: the present.

source...

A tragic fire on Wednesday destroyed the personal library of President George W. Bush. Both of his books were lost. A presidential spokesman said the president was devastated, as he had not finished coloring the second one.

Name:

Black Sands

Message:
This is a short poem made up entirely of actual quotations from George W. Bush. These have been arranged, only for aesthetic purposes, by Washington Post writer, Richard Thompson. A wonderful Haiku poem like this is too good not to share.

I think we all agree, the past is over.
This is still a dangerous world.
It's a world of madmen and uncertainty
And potential mental losses.

Rarely is the question asked
Is our children learning?
Will the highways of the Internet
Become more few?

How many hands have I shaked?
They misunderestimate me.
I am a pitbull on the pantleg
of opportunity.

I know that the human being
And the fish can coexist.
Families is where our nation finds hope, where our wings take dream.

Put food on your family!
Knock down the tollbooth!
Vulcanize society!
Make the pie higher!
Make the pie higher!

Name:	Good lit found
To:	forum
Re:	Cannot get all conservatives in any paper x conchron

In response to:
http://www.conservativechronicle.com/topics/Daily the US borders, language, and culture are under fire. Has been said that border patrol spends 77% rounding up illegals already here. Why not keep them out or catch them at the border with that 77%.Rednecks visiting Mexico for the cantinas/women would take many back for a beer or two.

Just as during the Cold War, those who primarily threaten our liberty today do so insidiously, by masquerading as champions of liberty while sandblasting its main pillars: our unique culture and traditional values.

If our society finally surrenders to the relentless onslaught against the absolute moral standards that serve as the foundation for our library of freedoms, it will only be a matter of time before America falls.

I don't mean to be a prophet of doom. We don't have to throw in the towel. But unless a healthy percentage of traditionalist wakes up and starts fighting back, our grandchildren will not inherit the blessings of liberty or the luxury of a society built on the rock solid foundation of Judeo-Christian values.

I don't quite understand how there can be such apathy when we see evidence of cultural assaults and the astonishing intolerance of the culture annihilators every day. Don't tell me that the aggressors merely want equal rights or societal respect. It appears they will not be satisfied until traditionalists are muzzled and Christian expression and worship are relegated to the privacy of our homes and churches, if that.

There is not time for seminars at which academics and other remainders from the '60s ponder the question, "Why do they hate us?" We shouldn't care. The question should be, "How quickly can we eliminate them before they come after us again?" They cannot be placated or converted, and the longer we pretend they can, the more bombings and death we will see.

The election in Spain is a sign that the horrors of 9/11 in New York and Washington and now 3/11 in Madrid are not the end of it. They are just the beginning.

This is a world war, and we had better start behaving like we are in one. OUr enemies are.

Over the past eight years of free-market reforms, Spain's economy has prospered mightily. Somehow, nonetheless, a fundamental lesson of economics never sank into Spanish consciousness.

The lesson is that what a society wants more of, it rewards; what it wants less of, it penalizes. The Spanish on Sunday said they wanted more terrorism. They voted to reward it. Our, at the voter's bidding, goes the party that had been fighting the terrorists; in comes the party that has obstructed the fight, insofar as it could, and pledges now to pull all Spanish troops out of Iraq.

Like Zapatero, Kerry sets up an impossible diplomatic hurdle to cross before military action can be contemplated against rogue countries known to harbor and support terrorists — broader international support and a U.N. consensus for war. As Bush remarked earlier this month, Kerry was all for going to war against Iraq "as long oas no one objects."

The history of appeasement shows that it has always failed. Chamberlain's efforts to let Adolf Hitler have a little slice of Europe (in the hopes it would satisfy his lust for power and bring Great Britain "peace in our time") ended with Germany's invasion of Poland and, eventually, the beginning of World War II.

Spain's withdrawal of its 1,300 troops from Iraq will not end Al Qaeda's thirst for blood. It will only embolden the terrorists to step up their attacks elsewhere, where the death toll will be much higher than the 201 lives that were snuffed out in Madrid.

Name:	Donkeys Rule!
To:	forum

In response to:
from democrats.org Democrats want illegal aliens booted. Especially if the are sneakin Arabs! 87 nationalities got caught in San Diego , many from the persona non grata country list.

Name:	Hyperchromium Caddybumpers
To:	Tar Baby
Re:	The First Black President. They haven't finished trying to color the second one.

In response to:
A tragic fire on Wednesday destroyed the personal library of President George W. Bush. Both of his books were lost.

Message:
A sudden and unexpected fire destroyed the William Jefferson Clinton Library early today. The only copy personally signed by the editor and publisher, Larry Flynt, of HUSTLER magazine ever presented to a sitting U.S. President was destroyed, along with the First National Thong and a very special blue dress.

Name:	Lavish Estates
To:	Earwax
Re:	Democrats without borders

In response to:
from democrats.org Democrats want illegal aliens booted. Especially if the are sneakin Arabs! 87 nationalities got caught in San Diego , many from the persona non grata country list

Name:

a copy cat episode ?

In response to:
As above, a strange unexplained fire destroyed the Ronald Reagan Ranch & Library --- which provided a great BBQ for the ranch hands & servants. A few priceless artifacts were destroyed, but NOT the Movie photos of Reagan in his best years of acting, -- in "Bedtime for Bonzo".

Message:
No disrespect to the President, as many of us were really fans of his Hellcat in the Navy & other films.

Name:	Haarz al Ahmadi
To:	Probably Lord of Flies

In response to:
Nope. (A)I didn't start it. I didn't fly a coupla wide-bodies into the WTC, Pentagon, and who-knows-what intended target. I didn't blow up some trains in Madrid.

As for the small number of Muslims who do these things, or who demonstrate a willingness to do them, or who are directly complicit in doing them, I advocate hunting them down and killing them.

I feel the same way about Basque Communist terrorists, Symbionese Liberation Army terrorists, Union thugs, Rapists, or the jerks who pull armed robberies at convenience stores all over the U.S. every damned day of the week.

John Kerry on Gun Control

Q: Do you find it necessary to kill animals for photo-ops? A: I don't think the Democratic Party should be the candidacy of the NRA. And when I was fighting to ban assault weapons in 1992 and 1993, Dean was appealing to the NRA for their endorsement, and he got it. I believe it's important for us to have somebody who is going to stand up for gun safety in America and make certain that we make our streets safe, our children safe, and not allow people to get assault weapons in America.

KERRY: There's a story in today's Washington Post that says that Democrats are going to run away from the issue of gun safety. I don't think that we can get elected nationally if we are not prepared to stand up against powerful special interests. Too many die each year from guns. I am for the assault weapons ban. I'm for the Brady Bill.

Require checks on all firearm sales at gun shows. Status: Amdt Agreed to Y)50; N)50; VP decided YES

Reference: Lautenberg Amdt #362; Bill S. 254 ; vote number 1999-134 on May 20, 1999 Voted NO on more penalties for gun & drug violations.

The Hatch amdt would increase mandatory penalties for the illegal transfer or use of firearms, fund additional drug case prosecutors, and require check on purchasers at gun shows. [A YES vote supports stricter penalties]. Status: Amdt Agreed to Y)48; N)47; NV)5

Reference: Hatch Amendment #344; Bill S. 254 ; vote number 1999-118 on May 14, 1999

Vote to table or kill a motion to require that all gun sales at gun shows be completed by federally licensed gun dealers. Also requires checks to be completed on buyers and requires gun show promoters to register with the Treasury.

Vote to table [kill] an amendment to make it unlawful for gun dealers to sell handguns without providing trigger locks. Violation of the law would result in civil penalties, such as suspension or revocation of the dealer's license, or a fine.

Prevent unauthorized firearm use with "smart gun" technology. Kerry signed the manifesto, "A New Agenda for the New Decade": Make America the “Safest Big Country” in the World After climbing relentlessly for three decades, crime rates started to fall in the 1990s. Nonetheless, the public remains deeply concerned about the prevalence of gun violence, especially among juveniles, and Americans still avoid public spaces like downtown retail areas, parks, and even sports facilities.

We need to keep policing “smart” and community-friendly, prohibiting unjust and counterproductive tactics such as racial profiling; focus on preventing as well as punishing crime; pay attention to what happens to inmates and their families after sentencing; use mandatory testing and treatment to break the cycle of drugs and crime; and enforce and strengthen laws against unsafe or illegal guns. Moreover, we need a renewed commitment to equal justice for all, and we must reject a false choice between justice and safety.

Technology can help in many areas: giving police more information on criminal suspects so they do not rely on slipshod, random stop-and-search methods; allowing lower-cost supervision of people on probation or parole; and making it possible to disable and/or trace guns used by unauthorized persons.

Above all, we need to remember that public safety is the ultimate goal of crime policy. Until Americans feel safe enough to walk their neighborhood streets, enjoy public spaces, and send their children to school without fear of violence, we have not achieved public safety.

Develop and require “smart gun” technology to prevent use of firearms by unauthorized persons and implement sensible gun control measures.

Ban racial profiling by police but encourage criminal targeting through better information on actual suspects.

Require in-prison and post-prison drug testing and treatment of all drug offenders.

Name:	advice to right-wingers
To:	right-winger poster of the kerry-communist image

Message:
That Kerry-Komunist image is just too stupid for words. Drop the high-school cr*ap and challenge Kerry on his plans for the war on terrorism, or his plans for Iraq, or his plans for the oil problem.

You just make the left laugh at you with stupid stuff like that image. Everybody but some right-wingers who did not go to school and cannot read, knows that Kerry is in the United States Congress and is not a Communist.

Name:	Palm Sunday
Re:	Resurection Blues

In response to:
Most people also know that the Communist Party died several years ago.

Message:
And we also know that Hillary and the democrats are trying to raise it from the dead.

Name:	Advice to Right-Wingers
To:	Resurection Blues

In response to:
And we also know that Hillary and the democrats are trying to raise it from the dead.

Message:
This is too silly for words. Extremist right-wing groups pump this stuff into your heads thinking that real critical issues like the oil problem, or Kerry's approach to the war on terrorism is too difficult for you to grasp.

Take that image to a junior high school. Maybe it could persuade a few kids who are not eligible to vote. Perhaps you could persuade some uneducated right-wingers who never tune into the political scene. But most people who come to this forum are looking for intellectual challenge, and have an above-average education. They're very savvy.

Name:

Palm Sunday

In response to:
Most people also know that the Communist Party died several years ago.

Message:
The communist party is hibernating. The old style s are now disguised as environmentalists, feminists and cult of Hillary worshippers. Spurred on by Hollywood dingbats, leftist trial lwayers, teacher union hacks and victim pushers.

Name:

Palm Sunday

In response to:
Extremist right-wing groups pump this stuff into your heads thinking that real critical issues like the oil problem, or Kerry's approach to the war on terrorism is too difficult for you to grasp.

Message:
Why is it that the communist world leaders of today are endorsing Kerry? Simpatico feelings?

Name:

Civil Bagdasarian

Message:

Rapture Ready

Rapture Ready Home

Nearing Midnight

Rapture Ready Bulletin Board

Left Behind

Left Behind Letters

	Print a text version of this article
	Africa's Top Anglican Warns U.S. Church

	Submitted By:Jack
	Click for Source Article
	The spokesman for bishops who claim leadership of a majority of the world's Anglican Christians denounced the gay-rights policies of America's Episcopal Church on Saturday, following a two-day caucus in Atlanta with U.S. conservatives. Archbishop Peter Akinola said the future of true Anglicanism in the United States lies with conservative minority opposition groups within the Episcopal Church who oppose gay marriage and the church's approval of an openly gay bishop. The Episcopal Church is the U.S. branch of the Anglican Communion. Akinola also said in a telephone interview that unless conditions change, he will not attend meetings alongside the leader of the Episcopal Church, Presiding Bishop Frank Griswold, or attend the 2008 meeting of the world's Anglican bishops if the U.S. hierarchy participates. Akinola leads Nigeria's Anglican church, with its 17.5 million members, and the Council of Anglican Provinces of Africa, a continent that includes half the world's 77 million Anglicans. He is also spokesman for "Global South" archbishops who have severed normal ties with the Episcopal Church. Episcopal Church spokesman Daniel England said Saturday that Griswold understands that Akinola has strong feelings on the issue. "I'm sure the presiding bishop will be disappointed if the archbishop cannot join him at the communion table," he said. Archbishop Njongonkulu Ndungane of Cape Town has criticized Akinola's strong stand against the U.S. church. But the archbishops announced jointly March 29 that they agree with the stand against gay clergy and blessing of same-sex couples taken by the world's bishops at their 1998 meeting. The dispute over the American church's acceptance of gay activity became a major world issue when it approved an openly homosexual bishop, V. Gene Robinson of New Hampshire. Akinola underscored his support of the conservative minority over the weekend when he met in Atlanta with leaders from the two main U.S. organizations that oppose toleration of homosexual activity: the American Anglican Council and the recently formed Network of Anglican Communion Dioceses and Parishes. Akinola said the Episcopal Church "is trying to redefine Christianity and rewrite Scripture, and we have no right to do that. The historic faith of the church is what we stand by, and there is no going back." In the archbishop's view, although those who favor liberal policies on homosexuality have a clear operating majority in the U.S. church, he strongly backs the minority and its new network. "It's either repent and come back to the fold, or give up on the Anglican family," he said. But England, the Episcopal Church spokesman, said the church's position stands. "If he's waiting on the network to replace the Episcopal Church, I think he's in for a long wait," he said.

Name:	Just So
To:	Doen't like the word "Communist".
Re:	Are all the dictionaries put out by Right-wing extremist groups?

In response to:
This is too silly for words. Extremist right-wing groups pump this stuff into your heads thinking that real critical issues like the oil problem, or Kerry's approach to the war on terrorism is too difficult for you to grasp

Message:
You wish. Kerry is a fine little Marxist or useful idiot. Practically speaking, it doesn't matter which category he fits into. As a senator, Kerry has a long record of serving Communism well.

Name:	Smedley
Re:	John Kerry on Gun Control

In response to:
Prevent unauthorized firearm use with "smart gun" technology.

Message:
This alone tells me Kerry is a moron. There's no available, working "smart-gun technology.

The heck with 25%. Let's cut it 100% Let's make illegal all things bad. That'll end it all. < /sarchasm >

Name:	Sojouner
To:	LOF-ish
Re:	Another re-write from the Left

In response to:
Nope. (A)I didn't start it. I didn't fly a coupla wide-bodies into the WTC, Pentagon, and who-knows-what intended target

Name:	The Children
To:	The Village
Re:	Make the bad guns go away!

In response to:
The heck with 25%. Let's cut it 100% Let's make illegal all things bad. That'll end it all. < /sarchasm >

Message:
I want a puppy too! Will Mr. Kerry make the bad CEO men give me a puppy? I want a brown one with spots of white and a wiggley tail and big feet and I shall name her Priscilla!

Name:	Crawford Livestock Comission
Re:	Mess-O-Pottage

In response to:
critical issues like the oil problem,

Name:	Johnny Can Read
To:	Hai Keening & The Wailers
Re:	Yoil of Yolay

In response to:
Why?

Name:	Milan
To:	Haarz al Ahmadi
Re:	What "bigotry" is there in fighting an ideology?

In response to:
I feel the same way about Basque Communist terrorists, Symbionese Liberation Army terrorists, Union thugs, Rapists, or the jerks who pull armed robberies at convenience stores all over the U.S. every damned day of the week

Message:
Thanks for setting things straight in the noise of these bad actors from the political-correctness-thought-police

who try in vain to make the rest of us (who don't tow their line) look like hatemongers.

Name:	Same old song
To:	forum

In response to:
Unwanted insects (stray Muslims)will continue to come to the picnic in Iraq until the Real Kill Insecticide (US Airfoece) seals border with Raid(s).

Message:
The strategy has always been, whether Palestine , Afganistan or Iraq to sneak in, an irregular force via small vehicles across an unguarded undetermined border to kill an undetermined number of infadels and obey the Koran. Unless many, many vehicles are destroyed in the border crossing to discourage this fun sport, little headway will be made. It is very discouraging to all party goers to get killed before one gets started. That's why the old founder tried to make martyredom look so appealing and geared it for young men who have so little during youth except overactive testacles. Sure we want Paradise and all those fresh women! But getting killed in Ezra's Toyota without even seeing who did it is too much. Think I'll stay in the tent and dream!

Name:	Birch/Rightwing Media/Scaife Axis
To:	Kerry Touters/DNC DERVISHES/Kerry-Kohn Bandwagoneers
Re:	The "election" is a mere formality; a staged media event.

In response to:
You are finished. All of you. YOU ARE FINISHED, DO YOU HEAR???!!!!!!!!!

Name:	John Kerry
To:	forum

In response to:
My Party has always sought to field the most "bad boy" candidate in order to stimulate the Democrat vote. Who will vote for a guy who doesn't "fool around"? Average Joe longs for "stray women" but is either too broke , too busy working, or too scared of STDs, getting found out , or otherwise preoccupied to be adventurous.

Message:
Yes, we do like an interesting person in a candidate, one that we can identify with. Go get 'em , Stud! And if you get rich, hell, that's the fun of being in charge, isn't it? If you're already rich, you can be a billionaire and better known than Bill Gates.

Name:	Human Being
To:	Every Ant and Bee
Re:	Underneath the spreading chestnut tree

In response to:
SOCIALISM IS TRUHT

Name:	The Women
To:	Kyle E.
Re:	Sick mind + cigarette dick

In response to:
Instructional materials

Message:
You are no lover, kid. You are nowhere near being a lover of even minimal competence. You ain't nothing but a grossly underqualified gynecologist with inadequate tooling.

Name:	Joe Dem Machievelli
To:	Birch/Rightwing Media/Scaife Axis
Re:	Evil Republicans

Message:
Our party apparachik chatterboxes are broadcasting mind control signals over Air . Unfortunately, it only works on weak minds. Nevertheless, we are sure that all of the traditional Democrat constituents will be out en masse this November: the stupid, the felons, illegal aliens and the dead.

Name:	Yanmar Warbuggy
Re:	Murderous, high-profile illegitmate 'Clerics" & others

In response to:
Intolerabley intolerant pissants

What makes me want to puke is any and all sick, murderous dirtbags, whether they affect any religious affilliation or not, who stand in front of any convenient crowd of the ignorant and the benighted with a pack of hovering "bodyguards" behind them giving everyone the eye while the dirtbag flaps his sphincter like an infernal kazoo as he openly, knowingly, and maliciously solicits the mass murder and wholesale mutilation of innocent people.

There aren't many of these creatures, and they need to be identified and eliminated forthwith.

Some things cannot be tolerated, whether in the name of God or the devil. The cost in innocent lives is simply too damned high.

Name:

The Unemployed Ugly

Message:
Washington, D.C. -- Economic analysts were abuzz Monday following the release of February's Labor Department figures, which showed the unemployment rate for hot young women in the U.S. holding steady at zero percent for the 302nd month in a row.

"What these figures say is that if you're looking for work in America right now, you'll have no problem finding it - as long as you're a totally smokin' hot young chick, that is," senior U.S. economist Cary Leahey said in a television interview Sunday. "From small businesses to major corporations, companies across the board are hiring cute young hotties for positions every bit as quickly as they always have."

Independent economic analyst Eli Patterson said the report indicates that although the national jobless rate for run-of-the-mill, average-looking workers actually rose from 5.7 percent in January to 5.9 percent in February, not a single attractive female under the age of 30 is currently unable to find work.

"Sure, today's job market is kind of a nightmare for those unskilled laborers that are maybe a few pounds overweight or not especially striking or, well, male," said Patterson, speaking from his New York office. "But the Labor Department's February figures say conditions remain optimal for gorgeous, barely legal girls to find someone willing to hire them - especially if they wear their hair down and dress in semi-revealing clothes for their interviews. It's little things like that that can catch a human resource manager's eye and go a long way toward getting them the job."

Patterson claimed that thin, young, -sexy women have a distinct advantage in today's job market: "Employers in general seem more willing to take a chance on total drop-dead knockouts."

In fact, analysis of Labor Department figures shows that the rate of unemployment among the country's young stunners has not risen above the zero percent mark since January of 1978.

"If you look at the statistics, it's clear that sexy babes are historically the most employable members of the nation's labor pool," said Patterson as his secretary - an unbelievably hot piece of ass that couldn't be a day over 21 - refilled his coffee mug. "And all indications are that this trend will likely continue for the foreseeable future."

A recent poll conducted by USA Today reported that employers - even when presented with a field of more qualified applicants - predominantly hire the youngest, best-looking female for the job, regardless of that sexy little number's lack of education, work experience, intelligence, personality, literacy or competency.

"Hey, if the skirt can even manage to operate a pencil, we'll find something around here for her to do," said Arthur Ceritteno, who owns a mid-sized furniture retailer in the southern U.S. "I always say we're an equal opportunity employer: we'll hire blonds, brunettes, Latinos, Russian girls, whatever. Hell, if the broad - excuse me, applicant - has the assets we need around here, I'll fire somebody to make room for her if I have to. Then everybody's happy."

President Bush, refuting claims that the country's modest economic recovery is failing to translate into new jobs, cited the February report as confirmation that the nation's unemployment situation is improving.

"I can't understand how anybody can say they can't find a job in this market, given all of the improvement we've seen," Bush said. "I guarantee you that I could send my daughters out right now today into this job market and they'd have absolutely no trouble landing a job. Well, Jenna, at least. Barbara still has some developing to do."

Name:	Personel
Re:	Console Floor Models

In response to:
Hell, if the broad - excuse me, applicant - has the assets we need around here, I'll fire some Fattie to make room for her if I have to. Then everybody's happy."

Message:
Fatties are often very poor employee prospects. Serious health issues aside, Fatties are often neurotic, socially dysfunctional persons. Obesity is often an outward symptom of overall poor coping skills. Many Fatties are simply physically incapable of performing many routine job operations, and unable to perform others at acceptable levels of competence. Fatties often are too massive in the butt to permit their using the usual plastic seating found in average company cafeterias. Some Fatties require special toilet accomodations, and they frequently initiate clogs and overflows, creating special problems for maintenence. And the fact that not a few Fatties are downright stupid must not be entirely overlooked.

Name:	Yip
To:	Yap
Re:	The Otherly-enabled

In response to:
"I can't understand how anybody can say they can't find a job in this market, given all of the improvement we've seen," Bush said. "I guarantee you that I could send my daughters out right now today into this job market and they'd have absolutely no trouble landing a job. Well, Jenna, at least. Barbara still has some developing to do." --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Name:

Trader Mack

In response to:
Just as during the Cold War, those who primarily threaten our liberty today do so insidiously, by masquerading as champions of liberty while sandblasting its main pillars: our unique culture and traditional values.

Tony Blair has decided to place the almost-taboo subject of race in Britain at the top of his government’s agenda and ordered a “cross-government assault to tackle abuse of the immigration system”.

The Prime Minister has called a “race and immigration summit” for Tuesday, which will be attended by Home Secretary David Blunkett, senior Foreign Office ministers, ministers from the Department of Works and Pension, the Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith and senior representatives from the security services and top police involved in tackling organised crime.

The summit will also mark the official start of a major policy review of Britain’s post-war approach to multiculturalism. The head of the Commission for Racial Equality, Trevor Phillips, who is close to Blair, said yesterday that multiculturalism in Britain was “out of date” and encouraged “separateness”.

He said there was an urgent need to “assert a core of Britishness” because multiculturalism in the present political era “means the wrong thing”.

The summit’s aim is to ensure better cross-department arrangements on what Downing Street called “a complex and important issue of policy”.

By taking personal charge of the immigration chaos which has engulfed the Home Office in recent weeks – resulting in the resignation last week of the immigration minister, Beverley Hughes – the Prime Minister is said to believe he can confront a growing undercurrent of racial concern in Britain that could grow to dominate next year’s general election unless his government is seen to improve its handling of immigration, refugee and asylum issues.

Blair taking charge also points to a lack of faith in Blunkett’s ability to steer the Home Office out of the stormy waters it has found itself in recently.

Although a spokesman for Blair said he retained “absolute faith in David Blunkett’s drive and political instincts”, a large question mark now hangs over the Home Secretary’s position.

Any new hint that Blunkett knew of the eastern European visa scam at the same time as Hughes, and Blair’s new-found determination to get tough on dealing with immigration matters, would almost certainly lead to Blunkett’s swift departure from his current post.

Phillips’s comments have provoked the same level of outrage he expressed a month ago when he attacked a similar analysis of Britain’s race problems as “the jottings of a BNP leader’s weblog”.

The Muslim Council of Britain tried to conceal its anger , and general secretary Iqbal Sacranie said: “Multiculturalism is something to cherish and be proud of.” He said Phillips’s comments had been “too Muslim-specific”.

Robina Qureshi, director of a Glasgow-based anti-racism pressure group, said she was “disgusted” by Phillips’s comments and questioned what “Britishness” meant to Scots, Irish and Welsh as well as Asians.

Other Muslim leaders were equally sceptical that Phillips had contributed positively to a new and growing debate on race . The Glasgow MP, Mohammad Sarwar, said: “I don’t have a problem with multiculturalism and a multi-faith society. That diversity is a source of strength, not weakness.”

The former Europe minister Keith Vaz said Phillips had got it wrong. Britain’s multicultural society, he said, was to be celebrated and not exploited. “It is a great achievement and is the envy of Europe.”

The black peer and former Tory candidate, Lord Taylor of Warwick, branded Phillips “too right-wing for me.” Taylor said Phillips’s motivation seemed to be driven by a belief that some Muslims were “anti-British” and he branded any suggestion of abandoning multiculturalism as a “backward step”.

those who primarily threaten our liberty today do so insidiously, by masquerading as champions of liberty while sandblasting its main pillars...

Message:
Thank you both for calling attention to greatest enemy: The cultural relativism that eats away at the moral foundations that made the West so great.

I am currently in the process of collecting quotes about Islam by some of our greatest thinkers of the Enlightenment. So far I have some extraordinary quotes (at home) by Alexis de Tocqueville (look up "Koran" in any unabridged version of "Democracy in America" and you will be amazed at how prophetic, as well as forgotten(!), was Tocqueville's comments on Islam).

I also have some information about some very provocative quotes by Blaise Pascal in his "Thoughts" (but I will wait until I have the book in my hands before posting it).

Volaire's play "Mahomet" (still banned) was an attack on Puritanical Christianity, but his choice of Islam's main prophet as a symbol of fanatical dogmanticism is telling to say the least.

For all its flaws, we owe so much to the thinkers of this period for the ideas that gave us, in the long run, the greatest society of all time. It is very unfortunate that their writings on Islam are so forgotten, at a time when we really need to look at it objectively.

Keep in mind that these people were writing without the blinders of religious dogmatism that preceded their time, the naive romanticism that followed it, and the political correctness that dominates our time.

Name:	Astroboy
Re:	Voltaire, Pascal, and de Toqueville

In response to:
Keep in mind that these people were writing without ... the political correctness that dominates our time.

Name:	Allahuakbar
Re:	Judeo-Christian-Islamic values

In response to:
Were these guys really French?

Name:	Wally Wahhabi
Re:	Thank you Switzerland!

In response to:
but this was long before the French got in touch with their inner Wahhabi.

“I was confident that the Swiss litigation would stand by me, because I do my job honestly,” Ramadan

CAIRO, April 4 (IslamOnline.net) – A Swiss court annulled a government decision to sack a Muslim from his job as a high school French language teacher in Geneva for publicly defending the Islamic punishment for adultery.

The Geneva Administrative Court reinstated Hani Ramadan, deeming the State Council’s decision of February 5, 2003, as null and void and ordering it to pay 5,000 Swiss Francs in compensation, Swiss daily Le Matin reported Saturday, April 3.

Ramadan, who is also the head of the Geneva Islamic Center, had defended the stoning punishment for adulterous men and women in an article published by French daily Le Monde late 2002.

He wrote that the stoning punishment is meant to help curb the “moral degradation” in societies and put the what he saw as “divine curse” (AIDS/HIV) under control.

Ramadan said – in his article - God has initiated the stoning punishment for “His love of mankind, because AIDS came out of nothing but from promiscuousness”.

Adultery in Islam is one of the most heinous and deadliest of sins. Its enormity can be gauged from the fact that it has often been conjoined in the Qur’an with the gravest of all sins.

However, Geneva State Council said his opinions “run counter to democracy and secularism in Switzerland”.

It also argued that the article violated the principle of “reservationism” observed by the educational institution in the country, stating that any teacher should not speak his personal viewpoints out so that they would not affect the mindsets of his students at an early age.

The decision had an adverse affect on Ramadan as he was ultimately banned from teaching in Geneva by the Swiss government.

The court described the Council’s “reservationism” as too vague to justify the dismissal of the Muslim teacher from his post.

Ramadan described the court’s verdict as “fair”, saying he was confident that the Swiss litigation would stand by him.

He said the government’s decision was “unjust” because “I do my job (as a teacher) honestly”.

“This ruling demonstrates that we live in a state of law and that dialogue between Islam and Christianity remains possible,” he told Le Matin.

Ramadan is the elder brother of famed Swiss Muslim intellectual Tarek Ramadan, who are both the grandsons of Hassan Al-Banna, the founder of Egypt’s outlawed Muslim Brotherhood.

Message:
Yes, they really were. The real French are apparently extinct, and have been replaced by a miserable gaggle of Communists, terrorist appeasers and quisling nincompoops presided over by a seething polyglot mob of international fanatics and self-mutilators.

Name:	Average Joe American
To:	forum
Re:	This is my country, land that I love

In response to:
Some say that the borders are arbitrary, English is only one of many languages in our new "Multicultural America," and that we share no common history or values. We believe in the Sovereignty of our Nation. That English is our national "glue." And that we all do share in the pillars of the Bible, the U.S. Constitution, and the Bill of Rights. These documents and what they stand for are our common cultural heritage.

Message:
Borders are not arbitrary, but well defined by history and in every Atlas. English is the official language, and every group that comes here to be Americans and excell becomes fluent in English. You want to pick crops or wash cars until you are 100? Fine, don't learn English or get any schooling past high school. You can live in Little Whatever in obscurity or you can do what smart immigrants do- become fluent in English, get an education, and excel! As for the Bible, American founding documents, and the Bill of Rights- these will be your protection and the foundation of YOUR LIFE in YOUR adopted country. Rest assured that clinging to OLD COUNTRY THINGS are to be remembered, taught to the children. The American Culture is what enables all of us to become the goals that we set for ourselves. There is somebody in every family that gets ahead, gets educated, and those who just get by as the "timid feeders in the lagoon" of life. Which one do YOU want to be?

Name:	Hasta la vista, Mustafa
Re:	Multicultural policy to be reviewed

Message:
The Brits have come to their senses.

Name:	Yul Beaner
Re:	Britishness has given much more postive than negative to humanity

In response to:
The Brits have come to their senses. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Message:
Hardly. They will throw Blair & Co. out and continue their slide into Communism and penurous self-loathing. What a pity.

Name:	American
To:	Watching Life Pass You By
Re:	Young, sullen, able-bodied pissants demanding "entitlements"

In response to:
English. You want to pick crops or wash cars until you are 100? Fine, don't learn English or get any schooling past high school, if that...

Message:
BUT...keep your God-damned greedy paws off of my paycheck and DO NOT whine to me about your chosen situation in life!

Name:	Citizen of the World
Re:	for more info on Kerry counterpunch.org

In response to:
That Kerry-Komunist image is just too stupid for words. Drop the high-school cr*ap and challenge Kerry on his plans for the war on terrorism, or his plans for Iraq, or his plans for the oil problem. You just make the left laugh at you with stupid stuff like that image. Everybody but some right-wingers who did not go to school and cannot read, knows that Kerry is in the United States Congress and is not a Communist.

Name:	Paul Crespo
Re:	Kerry voters may suffer buyers' remorse

Message:
April 5, 2004

After weeks of unusually positive press, Americans are getting a clearer picture of the presumptive Democratic nominee, John Forbes Kerry. And it's not such a pretty picture after all. As Kirk Victor of the National Journal magazine noted, "Kerry's Democratic rivals never seriously attacked him, allowing him to emerge virtually unscathed with the nomination. Now that he is the nominee, however, Kerry's free pass has expired..."

Historically, the give and take of the nomination process allows voters to see what they are buying. This did not happen with Kerry. As Americans get a chance to examine their new purchase. Kerry's negatives grow stronger every day.

Democratic activists, who months ago had rightly written off Kerry as too boring and too liberal, suddenly rediscovered the Vietnam "war hero" as the emotionally unhinged Howard Dean imploded in Iowa. Needing an “electable” nominee, the Democratic machine, aided by the Iowa Democratic voters and the mainstream media, immediately switched to the Kerry camp with virtually no thought. This moved him to front runner status nearly overnight.

Had Kerry not mortgaged his second multi-millionaire wife's home to the tune of $6 million in December to make a loan to his campaign (another controversial issue), he might not even be the nominee now. Some Democrats now think their party should have done more due diligence on Kerry before jumping pell-mell on his bandwagon. Others may be having “buyer’s remorse.”

In one Miami radio debate in which I participated a month ago, hispanic Democratic pollster, Sergio Benedixen, launched into his remarks with guns blazing, endlessly repeating Kerry's "war hero" mantra, using the term a half dozen times in so many minutes. Appealing to the conservative Cuban American community, he added that with Kerry “the war hero” as the Democratic nominee Republicans could no longer claim Democrats were soft on communism and national security.

He seemed genuinely taken aback when I quickly challenged that assertion by noting Kerry's extensive involvement in the leftist anti-war movement. Many Vietnam veterans felt betrayed by Kerry’s group -- the Vietnam Veterans Against the War -- believing that these protesters were traitors who helped demoralize US and South Vietnamese forces prior to the conquest of South Vietnam. To those veterans Kerry and his group greatly aided the North Vietnamese enemy achieve victory, ensuring that our soldiers died in vain.

And as details of Kerry’s four brief months in Vietnam emerged, including the three minor "scratches" he received that earned him the three Purple Hearts medals he used to leave Vietnam eight months early, much of his “war hero” shine began to fade.

Meanwhile photos of the cover of Kerry’s 1971 book, "The New Soldier," which displays long-haired, bearded “veterans” carrying an upside-down American flag mocking the famous raising of the American flag on Iwo Jima by the US Marines during World War II, only highlighted Kerry’s disdain for the uniform he wore.

This disdain was reinforced by the incident where Kerry, during an anti-war protest, threw either his medals -- or someone else’s medals -- over the fence at the US Capitol in a public show of disgust with his military service. Later, after he was elected to the US Senate, his medals -- or someone else’s medals -- hypocritically reappeared proudly on his office wall.

In his book, Kerry also downplayed any threat posed by the Communist government of North Vietnam and instead charged that American soldiers in Vietnam "were killing women and children" and helping to create "a nation of refugees, bomb craters, amputees, orphans, widows, and prostitutes."

And in testimony before the Congress, Kerry quoted numerous “veterans” who told tales of widespread atrocities by US forces in Vietnam. Sadly, many of the so-called veterans proved to be frauds, and the claims of atrocities wildly exaggerated or outright fabricated. We have since heard much less of Kerry “the war hero.”

Photos of Kerry with Jane Fonda and other prominent anti-American leftists along with Kerry's photo shaking hands with Nicaragua’s communist dictator Daniel Ortega have only added to the image of Kerry as an out-of-the-mainstream leftist.

Meanwhile Kerry’s current wife, Teresa Heinz’s strong ties to numerous extreme left organizations, such as the Tides Foundation, have also surfaced. And more people are talking about one of Kerry’s biggest liabilities: his arrogance, pomposity and foul mouth which add to his likeability problem.

This was vividly underscored recently when Kerry referred to the Secret Service agent who accidentally collided with him on the ski slopes at his wife's winter retreat in Idaho as the “son of a ” who knocked him over. Kerry should be reminded that the SOB in question is charged with taking a bullet for him if necessary.

All these issues, combined with Kerry’s Senate record, which the respected, non-partisan Washington magazine, National Journal, rates as the most liberal in the Senate -- may make Kerry a lot less "electable" than previously thought. Soon many Democrats may be asking of Kerry: “Can we get a refund?”

Paul Crespo is a former member of The Miami Herald editorial board. He teaches politics at the University of Miami. This column appears this week in Tiempos del Mundo.

Name:	Average Joe American
To:	American
Re:	Some more comment on Democrat scamming

Message:
HOWARD DEAN (D), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You all make me so happy I could just scream. Let me -- let me thank your fantastic Attorney General Peg Lautenschlager and let me thank Senator John Erpenbach, who was the first Wisconsin official to endorse us a long time ago. Thank you very much. And your extraordinary Dane County commissioner -- that's not your real title is it? Executive, thank you, somebody wrote the wrong thing down here Kathleen Falk. Howard did scream, was branded a kook by Kerry and others These are three -- these are three extraordinary(?) people who have done a great job for the state of Wisconsin and I appreciate their support, their integrity, their help. I also want to introduce one other person that doesn't know he's going to get introduced and I'm sure he'll be very embarrassed, our state campaign manager Mike Tate, thank you very much for all your help. BROWN: This is that part of every political speech where everyone gets introduced. DEAN: I hate to go through all this and bore you all but the truth is we couldn't have done this without these folks. I want to thank the SEIU. They stuck with me through thick and thin and I want to thank the International Union of Painters and Allied Trade, the painters sticking with us right until the end. We appreciate it very much. You guys are great. Unions have been fear-mongering for years. It works! Scared workers grab at straws or anything to save their jobs. Truth is some white collar jobs can stay here as part-time for grad students RIGHT HERE IN USA. Students would like benefits, big pay 40 hours etc but will settle for some money part-time. What's the point in getting a PhD India person from a wealthy Hindu family for $10 / hour. This is BIG MONEY IN INDIA. Will this help a deserving American kid work his/her way and get through school? Several students can benefit or even degreed Americans between jobs. BROWN: Not every union has stayed with Senator -- or with Governor Dean to the end. Union members resent their money going to personds of ill repute and low character. Union members are not rock heads who only know what's in the newspapers and on TV. Many are not fooled. DEAN: I want to thank the people of Wisconsin. I have really had a great ten days here and -- and I understood if I'd have stayed one more day I would have been able to register and vote today. I have called Senator Kerry and Senator Edwards and congratulated them on two very, very good campaigns and I certainly appreciate how hard they worked and I appreciate even more how hard you worked. Kerry is worth 700 million dollars, much from ketchup factories in other countries. Edwards is a rich trial lawyer who convinced parents of cerebral palsy kids to sue and blame the doctor. "Look at that poor wretch in that wheel chair and that evil doctor driving a new Chevy Caprice!" There's an awful lot of people from all over this country who came to Wisconsin, a lot of people from Wisconsin who really worked hard to change this country and change this party and, guess what, you have succeeded. I know that some of you are disappointed because we didn't do as well as we'd hoped we would do in Wisconsin but I also want you to think for a moment about how far we have come. There are a lot of people in this room that are young and when you're young you never think things go as fast as you'd like them to go but the truth is change is tough and there's enormous institutional pressure in this country against change. There's enormous institutional pressure in Washington against change, in the Democratic Party against change and you have already started to change the Democratic Party and we will not stop. You have already written the platform of the Democratic Party for this election. A year ago -- a year ago the Democrats were falling all over each other to vote for the war in Iraq. They sure don't talk like that now. Democrats realized that talking about the losses of troups to go with the sad TV news would help them win after Bush won the war and the occupation is being a bit bloody. Unfortunately, the world news gets wind of this anti-war attitude and kills some Americans and drags dead, burned bodies to hang them from a bridge. After all this worked to get the US out of Samalia. Dividing the American public and being anti-war is aid and comfort to the enemy. A year ago the Democrats were accepting reckless budget deficits and huge tax cuts that mortgage our children's futures. They don't talk like that anymore. A year ago they were adopting the president's education policies which leave every child behind. They all voted for it but they don't support it anymore. Some of them even adopted the phony Medicare bill which gives more money to HMOs and insurance companies and drug companies than it does to seniors but they don't talk like that anymore. Finally -- finally we've got a Democratic Party that talks about its roots again, its core issues again. Finally Democrats in Washington have learned that they can stand up to the most right-wing president that we've had in my lifetime and that, guess what, if you stand up and you say what you believe the voters actually like it. Oh, so Bush is more "right-wing than Reagan was?!?! We are not done. A year ago -- a year ago Democrats were getting ready to run the 2004 campaign just like they always have in the past and just thought just like the Republicans did. They were asking for those large donations from all those special interests in Washington, collecting all that bundled money from special interests and you showed them that we don't have to do that anymore. It would be nice if a candidate could run using his own money and be beholding to NO ONE. Still he'd be bashed for getting rich in the first place! He would not be immune from being accused of "buying the election". You showed them you can raise more money than the special interests can, dollar by dollar, $25, $50 at a time from ordinary people, a quarter of all the people who gave money to our campaign were under 30 years old. That hasn't happened since I was under 30 years old and that was a long time ago. But we have a long way to go. In order to change America we have to fundamentally change Washington, both the Democrats and the Republicans. Russ Feingold and John McCain passed a great campaign finance bill. It is not enough. We need real campaign finance reform to get the special interests out of Washington. Democrats bash special interests hoping we will overlook "the abortion industry" , the building industry that does only gov't housing and others. Sen John McCain has exempted Arizona Indians as a special interest so he can get money from casinos they own! You have done that and we are not done yet together. This campaign has been about giving the power in this country back to ordinary people, taking it away from the big corporations who moved their headquarters to Bermuda and their jobs to China and giving power and jobs back to ordinary Americans again. But we are not done yet. Fifty-six years ago Harry Truman promised health insurance to every man, woman and child in America. Fifty-six years later, special interests giving money to both parties and stopped that dream from being realized. We are not done yet until every American man, woman, and child has health insurance like all those other countries in the world. Who was it that held secret meetings with HMOs and lawyers to influence the HMOs and Healthcare from the 1990s to now? What about when the HMO decides NOT TO PAY for ITEMS IT paid last month? CLUE? It wasn't Laura Bush. She was teaching school in Texas. And she's not a lawyer. We are going to continue to fight for a strong America, which understands that security is based on cooperation with other nations and not just confrontation. How's that "Dean the Scream? When Democrats voted against raises and equipment for the military from 1980 to present, is that pro-military? Do you have a son in the military on food stamps? Being charged for food while in the hospital wounded? We are going to fight for a wise America where no child left behind is no longer an empty promise made by politicians in both parties in Washington but a promise that we're going to keep to our school boards and our taxpayers and our parents and, above all, our children. That's why the NEA , a Democrat owned teachers union, has more holidays and early dismissals for meetings than last year. If you are middle-aged you recall a shrunken class time schedule for pep rallys, but not so teachers could drink coffee, have a meeting and go home while the kids have no ride home, and turn to the gangs for protection walking home. We are going to fight for a fair America where workers can earn a decent wage, where the minimum wage goes up and CEOs don't earn 500 times more than the average working person even as they shift their headquarters to Bermuda and their jobs to China. We can do better than that. Democrats owned Congress from the 1950s to 1990s, and Congress MUST HAVE DONE NOTHING since jobs have been going overseas since the 1950s. BROWN: Howard Dean speaking to his supporters. We are not done yet together. Does that mean he stays in the race or not, a story for tomorrow. John Edwards clearly in the race tomorrow and for at least another couple of weeks, he is in Milwaukee tonight. He will finish a very solid second in this, a somewhat surprising second, well perhaps not surprising he was second but certainly surprising at how close it was and now he will talk to his people there. Source for bafflegab and hyperbole CNN,com

Name:	Scroll Mouse
To:	Scotty
Re:	Ski trip? Shoulder surgery? Naw.... It's more BOTOX!!

In response to:
Reloaded

Hospital Releases BORDERTEX With Giant Tumor

Name:

In response to:
”I think it would be great, but I have to be realistic because in my mind the main thing is to get rid of George Bush,” said Sue Gerling, a local Democratic activist who helped Clinton during her Senate campaign in 2000.

Name:

Hillary Owns This Issue

In response to:
Seh's a tortful lawyer sap who blames insurance and drug companies.

Message:
FRIVOLOUS LAWSUITS UNDERMINE HEALTHCARE SYSTEM AND HURT PATIENTS ACCORDING TO NEW SURVEY

Lawsuits increase the cost of healthcare, force changes in the practice of medicine and scare patients from necessary care.

WASHINGTON, DC — Doctors believe that patients are paying the price for frivolous lawsuits that are driving up the cost of healthcare and negatively affecting the practice of medicine, according to a survey released today by the American Tort Reform Association (ATRA) and SickofLawsuits.org.

Results of the study, which focus on physicians practicing in Louisiana, Mississippi, Texas and West Virginia, clearly demonstrate that medical lawsuits hurt our healthcare system. The majority of physicians surveyed believe that Judicial Hellholes™ negatively affect their ability to practice medicine and increase the cost of patient care.

"This study suggests that Judicial Hellholes really do harm healthcare," said Sherman Joyce, President of the American Tort Reform Association, a trade association of more than 400 members who support civil justice reform.

Judicial Hellholes are state trial court jurisdictions where ATRA believes that impartial justice is unavailable. Personal injury lawyers seek out these jurisdictions and file cases there with the expectation that they will receive a large reward, a favorable precedent, or both. In the four states surveyed, ATRA has identified numerous Judicial Hellhole jurisdictions.

"Lawsuits are clearly taking a toll on both physicians and patients," said Dr. Elizabeth Connell, senior advisor to SickofLawsuits.org and former FDA Advisory Panel chairperson. "In many states, frivolous lawsuits are forcing physicians to limit services, retire early, or move to states where reforms have made the system more stable. The healthcare litigation crisis is threatening access to care for patients."

Nearly all doctors believe that unnecessary lawsuits increase the cost of patient care.

Doctors are changing the way they practice medicine because of their concerns about medical litigation.

Nine-out-of-ten doctors are concerned about the effect of medical litigation on their practice of medicine.

One-third of doctors have read or heard about patients who were put at risk because of inflammatory advertising by personal injury lawyers.

Two-thirds believe that inflammatory advertising causes patients to fail to seek appropriate medical care.

"Fear of becoming a target for litigation is compelling doctors to change the way they practice medicine, and forcing some companies to pull much-needed products off the market," Joyce said.

"This survey proves what common sense and experience is already telling us. In the last twenty years, personal injury lawyers have found litigation against physicians, other healthcare providers and pharmaceutical manufacturers to be a lucrative growth area in their practices. Unfortunately, while these frivolous lawsuits are making personal injury lawyers rich, they are harming healthcare for the rest of us," Joyce noted.

The American Tort Reform Association (ATRA) and SickofLawsuits.org commissioned the Center for Survey Research and Analysis at the University of Connecticut to conduct an impartial series of list-based scientific telephone surveys with physicians concerning medical litigation issues. Interviews were conducted in Louisiana (n=101), Mississippi (n=107), Texas (n=103) and West Virginia (n=100) from December 2, 2003 to January 16, 2004 among Internists, General Practitioners, OB-GYNs, Cardiologists, and Gastroenterologists selected from an American Medical Association list. For more information about the survey methodology, or to receive a copy of the report findings, please visit ATRA's Web site, www.atra.org.

Concerned citizens can visit www.SickofLawsuits.org, a Website that provides information on the healthcare litigation epidemic that is hurting America's healthcare system.

About the American Tort Reform Association Founded in 1986, the American Tort Reform Association is a broad based, bipartisan coalition of more than 300 businesses, corporations, municipalities, associations, and professional firms who support civil justice reform.

Sick of Lawsuits.org SickofLawsuits.org is a grassroots campaign designed and supported by Citizens Against Lawsuit Abuse (CALA) groups and other civil justice reform groups across the country to help raise awareness of the healthcare litigation epidemic affecting all Americans. CALA groups are locally based, non-profit community coalitions dedicated to making the public better aware of the cost and consequences of lawsuit abuse. This grassroots response to junk lawsuits and the abuse of our legal system enjoys the strong and active support of small business people, consumers and taxpayers across several states.

Name:	XYZ
Re:	Democrat criticizes Clinton

Message:
Democratic Senator Joseph Biden says President Clinton's biggest terrorism failure was Monica Lewinsky because it left him unable to deal with the threat posed by Al-Qaeda.

Name:	XYZ
Re:	More Democratic spin on great job news

Message:
Now that the economy is starting to grow jobs at a greater-than-expected rate, the Democrats have to come up with a new angle. We started hearing it last week. "OK, so there's jobs. But wages aren't rising fast enough."

If Bush developed a cure for cancer the Democrats would scream "Big deal, what about AIDS?"

Name:

Pluto

In response to:
Personal injury lawyers (read democrats) use scare tactics that put healthcare at risk.

Name:	ET
To:	VRWC

In response to:
Democratic Senator Joseph Biden says President Clinton's biggest terrorism failure was Monica Lewinsky because it left him unable to deal with the threat posed by Al-Qaeda. This is a Democrat say this, folks.

Message:
The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy that persecuted the Clintons for 8 years non-stop, every day, every news broadcast, every forum on the HRC site, all-Monica-all-the-time were the ones responsible for distracting all of us from focusing on the terrorist threat.

The terrorists must have been laughing at us Americans so obsessively focused on blowjobs while they were quietly plotting to build their terrorist network to destroy us.

You will find, on the old forums, that there were many times I expressed the fear that we were being distracted by the media and the VRWC by Monica and blowjobs instead of real news.

Name:	Just thinking...
Re:	After Bush Pulls out of Iraq in June

Message:
It's too soon for President Bush to pull out of Iraq by June. He is firm on that date but all hell will break out in Iraq when we leave, and by the time November comes around Iraq will be such a mess that angry Americans will vote Bush out of office for losing 600 lives and billions of dollars for nothing.

Name:	John Kerry
To:	George Bush

Message:
Please pull out of Iraq by June. That will guarantee my election.

Name:	XYZ
To:	ET

In response to:
The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy that persecuted the Clintons for 8 years non-stop, every day, every news broadcast, every forum on the HRC site, all-Monica-all-the-time were the ones responsible for distracting all of us from focusing on the terrorist threat.

Name:

XYZ

Message:
Larry King will host Ted Kennedy tonight. Here's a question that won't be asked: "Senator, considering your long career in the U.S. Senate, it would seem that your decision to let that young lady drown in the back seat of your car while you were pacing the road worrying about your political future paid off. Would you care to comment?"

Name:	Sul Rost
To:	forum
Re:	Axis Sally,Toyko Rose, Hanoi Jane Fonda,Dems 2003-4

In response to:
Perhaps Sally's most famous broadcast, and the one that would eventually get her convicted of treason, was a play titled Vision of Invasion that went out over the airwaves on May 11, 1944. It was beamed to American troops in England awaiting the D-Day invasion of Normandy, as well as to the home folks in America. Gillars played the role of an American mother who dreamed that her soldier son, a member of the invasion forces, died aboard a burning ship in the attempt to cross the English Channel. The play had a realistic quality to it, sound effects simulating the moans and cries of the wounded ...

Message:
Don't have a Bagdhad Bertha but have Ted Kennedy, "Iraq is George W. Bush's Viet Nam." Thanks Ted maybe you'd like 55,000 more dead Americans but the rest of us are on the troops' side. WE will fence off the Sunni triangle with razorwire as Sunnistan, Kurdistan is already mostly formed, and the main troublemakers the Shiites will rule tystan and fight with the other two.

Name:	Last Visible Dog
To:	ET

Message:
The stink starts at the head. If Bill Clinton had not been such a sleaze, the pretend Vast Right Wing Conspiracy would have not been able to accomplish anything (of course how can a figment of Hillary's imagination accomplish anything anyway).

ET, stop trying to shoot the messenger - Bill Clinton caused the problems and he is solely to blame.

BTW: Democrat are attacking Bush as hard or harder than the Republicans went after Clinton - only difference is Bush is not giving them any material to feed on so they are forced to lie - Clinton on the other hand could not stop himself or keep it in his pants. Bill Clinton made his bed and he is now sleeping in it (along with his presidential legacy).

Remember one important fact: Bill Clinton was having sex when he was being paid to work. While he was talking on the phone about sending troops into harms way, Monica had his penis in her mouth. Stop trying to blame this on the Republicans. If Bush had done what Clinton had done, he would already be out of office.

Stop carrying the Clinton's water. Bill Clinton is the cause of all his problems.

Name:	Cali Thomas
To:	forum
Re:	Latest from US Supreme Court

In response to:
Victory for States' Rights- HMOs can be sued for damages. Consumer Reports is un-screwed for telling the truth, 9th Circus Court fouled up again ignoring the "actual malice". The Right Honorable Judge Moore is twisting in the wind and 19 Commandments lose their cherished abodes. Federal agancies can have varied policies to off-roading in fed. wild. areas. How about trash dumps?

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November 4, 2003, Tuesday NATIONAL DESK Supreme Court Roundup; Court to Review Suits on H.M.O. Policies By LINDA GREENHOUSE (NYT) WASHINGTON, Nov. 3 -- In a case of potentially great significance for managed-care companies and their patients, the Supreme Court agreed on Monday to decide whether health maintenance organizations can be sued for damages for refusing to cover necessary medical treatment. The court granted appeals by two managed-care companies that do business in Texas, where a state law, the Texas Healthcare Liability Act, provides compensatory and punitive damages against H.M.O.'s for coverage decisions that are found to amount to malpractice. A federal appeals court, ruling in both cases, allowed suits against Aetna Health and Cigna HealthCare of Texas to proceed in state court under the statute. The question for the Supreme Court is whether such suits conflict impermissibly with federal law and are therefore barred. The federal law, the Employee Retirement Income Security Act of 1974, or Erisa, governs employee benefit plans through which more than 130 million people receive their health coverage. Given the Congressional deadlock over patients' rights and the absence of new federal legislation that addresses the evolution of managed care since 1974, states have increasingly stepped into the breach to add protections and remedies. That has made Erisa, with its broad but confusing language that pre-empts some state laws, a focus of litigation. A series of recent Supreme Court decisions has done little to clarify matters, as demonstrated by the fact that the lower federal courts disagree on the basic question that the two new cases pose. In one of those cases, Aetna Health Inc. v. Davila, No. 02-1845, a patient with arthritis and other medical problems was given a prescription for an anti-inflammatory medication, Vioxx, by his doctor. But Aetna, which provided the medical and prescription coverage for the company where the patient, Juan Davila, worked, authorized Vioxx only for patients who had first tried and failed to benefit from two less expensive drugs. As a result, Mr. Davila took Naprosyn, an alternative that causes a higher incidence of gastrointestinal bleeding. After three weeks on Naprosyn, Mr. Davila suffered extensive internal bleeding and was taken to an emergency room, where doctors told him that he had come within hours of dying. He needed seven units of blood and was in critical care for five days. In the other case, Cigna HealthCare of Texas Inc. v. Calad, No. 03-83, Ruby Calad had a hysterectomy along with other surgical procedures. Although the coverage under her husband's health-care plan, provided by Cigna, specified a one-day hospital stay for a hysterectomy, Ms. Calad's surgeon recommended a longer stay. But Cigna's hospital-discharge nurse refused to authorize it. Ms. Calad left the hospital, suffered complications and returned several days later to the emergency room. Both patients sued for damages in state court, and the companies had the suits transferred to Federal District Court in Dallas, arguing that Erisa covered the cases and that they should be dismissed. The district court agreed. But the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit, in New Orleans, ruled last year that the plaintiffs were entitled to proceed in state court under the Texas law. The appeals court drew a distinction between the Erisa remedy, which it said was limited to reimbursing patients for expenses that under managed-care contracts they should not have incurred, and the damages available under the Texas law for negligence. Because the state remedy did not duplicate the Erisa remedy, federal law did not pre-empt it, the appeals court said. In their Supreme Court appeals, the companies said the appeals court had ignored the statute's language and Supreme Court precedents that made it clear that Congress intended the Erisa breach-of-contract remedy to be exclusive, not to be supplemented by state remedies. Among the other developments at the court on Monday were these: Consumer Testing Suit Without comment, the court refused an appeal by Consumers Union of a ruling requiring the organization to stand trial in a ''product disparagement'' suit brought by the Suzuki Motor Corporation. An article in 1988 in Consumer Reports, a magazine that Consumers Union publishes, said the Samurai, a small sport utility vehicle, ''rolls over too easily'' based on tests at the Consumers Union test track. The magazine repeated the evaluation in 1996, and Suzuki, which had stopped selling the Samurai in the United States, sued. In Federal District Court in Los Angeles, the company said Consumers Union had knowingly manipulated the test in 1988 and used the inflammatory result to increase its magazine circulation. The court dismissed the case before trial, but the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit, in San Francisco, overturned the dismissal and ruled that Suzuki was entitled to have its case before a jury. The question for the Supreme Court in the appeal here, Consumers Union v. Suzuki Motor Corp., No. 03-281, was what standard an appellate court should apply in reviewing a grant of summary judgment in a libel case against a public figure. The product-disparagement claim was a subset of libel, and under the First Amendment, libel against a public figure can be proven only by a ''clear and convincing'' demonstration of knowing or reckless falsity. Consumers Union argued that in reinstating the suit, the Ninth Circuit had failed to apply this ''actual malice'' standard with sufficient rigor and had looked just at isolated facts, not the whole record. It argued, as had the dissenting judge on the Ninth Circuit, that letting the suit proceed would invite similar suits against consumer groups by manufacturers vexed by product ratings. The Ten Commandments As expected, the court refused to hear an appeal by Roy Moore, the suspended chief justice of Alabama, of lower federal court orders requiring the removal of a Ten Commandments monument from the rotunda of the state's judicial building. The Supreme Court's refusal to grant an emergency stay paved the way to remove the monument and indicated that the justices would not hear the case. Mr. Moore had filed two appeals, In re Moore, No. 03-258, and Moore v. Glassroth, No. 03-468. Wilderness Policy The court accepted an appeal by the Bush administration in a case over regulating off-road vehicles in federal wilderness areas in the West. The Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance and other environmental groups sued in 1999, arguing that the failure to limit the vehicles' use violated federal laws. The question for the Supreme Court in Norton v. Southern Utah Wilderness Alliance, No. 03-101, is whether the federal courts have jurisdiction to consider such a claim before an agency has announced a final policy. The New York Times

Name:	Wally Wahhabi
To:	Osama
Re:	Planning the next big attack...

In response to:
The terrorists must have been laughing at us Americans so obsessively focused on blowjobs while they were quietly plotting to build their terrorist network to destroy us.

Let's pray for cover under another trivial issue the opposition can overblow, regardless of the party in office.

Give the president as little time as possible to deal with the important issues.

Name:	Smedley
To:	LVD, SET

In response to:
Remember one important fact: Bill Clinton was having sex when he was being paid to work. While he was talking on the phone about sending troops into harms way, Monica had his penis in her mouth. Stop trying to blame this on the Republicans. If Bush had done what Clinton had done, he would already be out of office.

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More importantly, Bill Clinton misused his office to his sexual advantaqe for years, and perjured himself, obstructed justice and conspired to cover his behaviour.

Had Clinton either behaved or confessed, there would be no issue here. Don't blame the OIC for uncovering truth. Blame the guy who misused his office and lied under oath.

Let's pray for cover under another trivial issue the opposition can overblow, regardless of the party in office.

Yes, so trivial that a sitting president committed a number of felonies to beat a civil-rights suit filed by a former victim of his sexual predation. No, Bill Clinton was not able to account for his own actions.

Give the president as little time as possible to deal with the important issues.

Time for important issues? Like time for getting a bl0wjob from an intern and feeling up the occasional volunteer. That sort of time? Time for one of the thousands of rounds of golf with Hugh odham or Ken Lay? That sort of time?

The Paula Jones suit probably did cost bill Clinton quality time on the links, but so what!

Name:	Jaamal T Bone
Re:	Not a gram of statesmanship among the lot of them!

In response to:
The Clintons & Etc.

Name:	ET
To:	LVD

In response to:
ET, stop trying to shoot the messenger - Bill Clinton caused the problems and he is solely to blame.

Message:
LVD - You are dead wrong. Wally Wahhabi hit the nail on the head so perfectly I'll repost his message so that you get the message.

Let's pray for cover under another trivial issue the opposition can overblow, regardless of the party in office.

Give the president as little time as possible to deal with the important issues"

I'm not excusing Bill Clinton. It was unbelievably stupid and embarrassing for all of us. But if nobody exposed him to the world this country would not have been distracted. The damage to this country was done by right-wing traitors who wanted to get Bill Clinton more than they wanted to protect America's image and security.

Name:	Fred Sanford
To:	Forum